• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Tactical discussion - loading mags

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

Liko81 wrote:
...For instance, if you alternate hollowpoints with FMJs so you can punch through a car door when you need to, only the FMJs will do the job and you're wasting HPs getting to the FMJs....

A car door is only slightly more protective than taping tin cans to your chest. A hollowpoint will go through very easily.

Besides, you are talking about a handgun, which is already a very uneffective fighting tool. If hollowpoints won't penetrate the BG's cover, FMJs aren't going to be very effective either.

There is no tactical purpose for FMJ in a handgun.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Until the "magic bullet" is invented, ammo selection always involves a compromise regarding accuracy, penetration, recoil, expansion, muzzle flash, weight retention, etc. There have been pretty good advances in bullet design over the past 20 years, so I believe thatwe can be pretty happy with the ammo that's available nowadays and don't need to seriously consider Dutch loading for most realistic situations.

Except for law enforcement personnel, most people won't be involved in situations calling for penetration of car bodies. And plenty of good hollowpoints will penetrate auto sheet metal without a problem. Penetration of a auto body is also dependent upon the angle at which the round hits. I would imagine there's actually a greater chance of a round nose FMJ round glancing off an auto surface when hitting at an acute angle.

If your rounds won't penetrate standard car doors and you're actually worried that you made need to do that, then maybe you ought to consider something more than a.22 short as your carry gun!

Someone mentioned loading three tracer rounds. That's a fairly standard military practice, and I'm not sure I would consider that "Dutch loading" per se, but it did remind me of something I have done from time-to-time, i.e., loading the second round into the mag with a hotter round than the rest. I don't usually count rounds as I fire,and firing the hotter round allows me to tactilely (that's "tactile"-- not "tactical") ascertain when I have one round leftand to mentally prepare for the need to reload after the next round. It's justaslight time advantagethan just waiting for the feel of the slide locking, but that small advantage might make the difference. Effective shooting is more mental than physical!

Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
imported post

Shotgun wrote:
Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.

Like they say: tracer rounds work both ways! I said that I loaded the 27th ROUND (singular) to let me know I was down to 3 rounds.....

While I ALWAYS reloaded to capacity at every opportunity and had a good IDEA how many rounds I had left, seeing that one tracer was ALWAYS a sure reminder! ;)

I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo! :uhoh:
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo! :uhoh:
Not as bad as the "ping" from an empty Garand, I'll bet.
With the Garand, that sound is amplified 200%!!!!!
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

ODA 226 wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.

Like they say: tracer rounds work both ways! I said that I loaded the 27th ROUND (singular) to let me know I was down to 3 rounds.....

While I ALWAYS reloaded to capacity at every opportunity and had a good IDEA how many rounds I had left, seeing that one tracer was ALWAYS a sure reminder! ;)

I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo! :uhoh:

You're right. Maybe that's only 1/3 as bad.

I don't know what "empty chambers" you were hitting. Were you using a revolver?
 

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

Shotgun wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.

Like they say: tracer rounds work both ways! I said that I loaded the 27th ROUND (singular) to let me know I was down to 3 rounds.....

While I ALWAYS reloaded to capacity at every opportunity and had a good IDEA how many rounds I had left, seeing that one tracer was ALWAYS a sure reminder! ;)

I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo! :uhoh:

You're right. Maybe that's only 1/3 as bad.

I don't know what "empty chambers" you were hitting. Were you using a revolver?
Many assault rifles also hit empty chambers, such as the AK47. Not all military rifles lock the bolt on an empty mag.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

expvideo wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Oh, the tracer rounds may alert a savvy opponent of your need to reload.... never underestimate your opponent... until you have defeated him.

Like they say: tracer rounds work both ways! I said that I loaded the 27th ROUND (singular) to let me know I was down to 3 rounds.....

While I ALWAYS reloaded to capacity at every opportunity and had a good IDEA how many rounds I had left, seeing that one tracer was ALWAYS a sure reminder! ;)

I found out the hard way at a very young age that the loudest sound in the world was to hit an empty chamber in a gunfight. EVERYONE knows you're out of ammo! :uhoh:

You're right. Maybe that's only 1/3 as bad.

I don't know what "empty chambers" you were hitting. Were you using a revolver?
Many assault rifles also hit empty chambers, such as the AK47. Not all military rifles lock the bolt on an empty mag.
Yeah, he said he used a CAR-15. That's why I asked.
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
imported post

Shotgun,

It was a Krinkov not a CAR-15. Due to inexperiance, I thought I had more rounds than I did, buthad runthe weapon dry. I applied IAD and when I went to fire, the weapon went click instead of bang.

After that incident, I began loading my 27th round as a tracer. I learned from that incidentand took corrective action.

The CAR-15 with a 10" barrel always was and still is my prefered weapon, but due to local "geography"was not always the most practical choice.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

ODA 226 wrote:
Don't do it.

+1

Your handgun is an emergency response tool. Use the KISS principle - Keep it Simple Stupid. It might be fun to think about mixing ammo but the vast majority of situations where you are likely to need to use the handgun you will want to act using your training. Decisions about which ammo is in the pipe can be a confusing complication.Complications and their resultant hesitation can get you killed.

Choose a really good and reliable round. Practice with this round in your carry gun. Yes it is more expensive than range ammo, but you want the ballistics and the recoil to be the same when your life is on the line as when you practice on the range. Your life is worth the extra expense.

Now a fun afternoon with rifles is a different story. I carry three different loads for my Swedish Mauser. :lol:

P.S. Please no flame about the Stupid in KISS. It was NOT meant to offend. Itis a tactical principle that has served me well. I used it here only because I thought it was central to my opinion, and maybe unwanted, advice.
 

Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,714
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
imported post

If you think you'll run into situations where you'll need an FMJ for penetration, just use FMJ instead, in my opinion.

If you are using a cartridge with a rim on the back, its also important to ensure the same OAL of the cartridge. If you mixed JHP and FMJ in a .32 auto for example, you would increase your chance of rimlock.

By mixing your rounds I think you make it more difficult to hit your target. Different loads will result in a slightly different POI. It would be bad I would think to occur in the middle of a string of fire.
 

Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,714
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
imported post

expvideo wrote:
There is no tactical purpose for FMJ in a handgun.


I disagree. .32 Auto hollowpoints, as well asmany other fairlyanemic calibersget insufficient penetration in my opinion.

I'd rather get 12-16"+ of penetration with an FMJ than to get 4-7" with JHP. Also, in many cases, especially with more anemic rounds, the JHP will not expand anyway (A lot of tests I've seen Denim will stop it from expanding, yet overall penetration is still hurt by the design)
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Felid`Maximus wrote:
If you think you'll run into situations where you'll need an FMJ for penetration, just use FMJ instead, in my opinion.

If you are using a cartridge with a rim on the back, its also important to ensure the same OAL of the cartridge. If you mixed JHP and FMJ in a .32 auto for example, you would increase your chance of rimlock.

By mixing your rounds I think you make it more difficult to hit your target. Different loads will result in a slightly different POI. It would be bad I would think to occur in the middle of a string of fire.
Ah yes, I live in a town where everyone wears body armor... :)
 

Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,714
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:
Felid`Maximus wrote:
If you think you'll run into situations where you'll need an FMJ for penetration, just use FMJ instead, in my opinion.

If you are using a cartridge with a rim on the back, its also important to ensure the same OAL of the cartridge. If you mixed JHP and FMJ in a .32 auto for example, you would increase your chance of rimlock.

By mixing your rounds I think you make it more difficult to hit your target. Different loads will result in a slightly different POI. It would be bad I would think to occur in the middle of a string of fire.
Ah yes, I live in a town where everyone wears body armor... :)

Yeah, I know.Every time Ivisit Catasauqua, I leave my JHP at home.

In other towns, elephant skin and massive amounts of flab could get in the way of a perfect shot.

And if it happens to be that they are "big-boned" you'll need to make sure you've got some SS190! ;)


I'm kidding of course. I do not expect to be in a situation where I'd need FMJ. But for those who insist on mags half full of FMJ, I'm merely recommending they have all FMJ instead.
 

Sleepless

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
218
Location
Canada
imported post

Just too bad that we can't do what is done with the AK-47 or the M-16 which is put the mags together in opposite direction and then use ducttape so if you want to use FMJ then you just turn the mags around and keep firing as needed.

But of course that is only a mans dream. :p
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
imported post

Sleepless wrote:
Just too bad that we can't do what is done with the AK-47 or the M-16 which is put the mags together in opposite direction and then use ducttape so if you want to use FMJ then you just turn the mags around and keep firing as needed.

But of course that is only a mans dream. :p
Don't do that either.
 

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

ODA 226 wrote:
Sleepless wrote:
Just too bad that we can't do what is done with the AK-47 or the M-16 which is put the mags together in opposite direction and then use ducttape so if you want to use FMJ then you just turn the mags around and keep firing as needed.

But of course that is only a mans dream. :p
Don't do that either.
+1
 

expvideo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
1,487
Location
Lynnwood, WA, ,
imported post

Felid`Maximus wrote:
expvideo wrote:
There is no tactical purpose for FMJ in a handgun.


I disagree. .32 Auto hollowpoints, as well asmany other fairlyanemic calibersget insufficient penetration in my opinion.

I'd rather get 12-16"+ of penetration with an FMJ than to get 4-7" with JHP. Also, in many cases, especially with more anemic rounds, the JHP will not expand anyway (A lot of tests I've seen Denim will stop it from expanding, yet overall penetration is still hurt by the design)

.32 Auto is an insufficient fighting caliber anyway, and should only be used for a backup. Of course a .32 in the hand is better than a .45 at home, but as fighting calibers go, .32.... doesn't.



I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

expvideo wrote:
I challenge anyone on this board to present a situation where you would need more than 10" of penetration from a handgun. There is absolutely no purpose for FMJ in a fighting handgun. .32 auto is not a fighting handgun, so you're going to have to do better than that.
If you're being attacked by a grizzly bear, for one...

But I get the point you're making, and agree. And any sort of "cover" one might need to shoot through will either have no effect on JHP's, or the cover won't be defeated by FMJ's anyway.

The point of FMJ's is to comply with the international "rules" of war, and that's about it, IMO.
 
Top