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Thread: What I understand about Ocing in WA

  1. #1
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    OK let me know if I am understanding WA laws concerning OCing, and if I understandthe correct things to do when OCing


    I will type this in simple terms…. Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to make sure I understand these laws, it will keep me out of trouble. If I forget anything please provide it to me.

    1. I will be legal to OC in public as long I carry my gun as a rational person wouldin a holster. And not touching the gun or holster, drawing it, pointing it or to it. gesturing toward it in any confutations.

    2. Carrying a firearm is governed my state laws, and the laws and ordnances a city or county may place on me does not matter. Like Public parks, public transit, public zoos, public libraries, etc..

    3. Private businesses have the right refuse me service or entrance for OCing. If a notice is posted upon entry to a private business "NO Weapons" I should not enter OCing. If there is not a "NO Weapons" sign posted I can enter, but I may be asked to leave if the owner wishes me to. If it's his/her wish me me to leavethen I should leave.

    4. NO carry of any type in a federal building, or property or any school. But soon (MAYBE) we will be able to carry in federal parks.

    5. If I ever have to use my sidearm, it has to be my last resort in SD. And I should retreat first only if it is safe to do so.

    6. If I draw my pistol I better fire it and kill the BG or I could possibly face a lawsuit. If I hit a BS then I will be charged, or sued. Also If I do kill the BG then I could still have a civil case against me

    7. If I am approached by the police. I should
    A. DO AS THEY SAY
    B. No sudden movements
    C. Cooperate with them
    D. Be very polite
    E. keep hands in clear sight
    F. Have a legal gun on me
    H. be legally able to posses a pistol

    8. When traveling with a firearm and having a valid CCW I can carry anyway I like as long as I have my CCW with me. and it is rational.


    If for any reason I have to leave my pistol in my car it should.. be locked and out of sight andI can have the CCW with me. If the pistol is isnot locked away, the CCW should be with it. Always out of reach and sight of others.

    9. If I have my CCW and I have my pistol concealed. I can remove my jacket to reveal my pistol and still be legal.

    10. know the laws on firearms in WA state

    11. Keep a good amount of OCDO pamphlets with me, and maybe a audio recorder.

    12. Expect many looks and questions, and expect there to be hostile and non-hostile encounters from both civilians and LE.

    13. it is best to carry a level II or II retention holster.

    14. Stay alert at all times.

    15. If asked by a civilian to disarm. I do not have to. In a private business I have to, In a corporation there should be something in policy stating no weapons.

    This is how I am understanding things. If I OC and follow these things would I be wrong in any part or will I be ok? This is my Complete understanding on Ocing. Where am I wrong, and what did I miss?

    Thanks



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    this is what i have gotten out of this board so far pretty much except a few things:

    4. NO carry of any type in a federal building, or property or any school. But soon (MAYBE) we will be able to carry in federal parks.
    I believe that it is legal to carry a firearm onto university and college campuses if you are not a student. They have every right to ask you to leave though.

    7. If I am approached by the police. I should
    A. DO AS THEY SAY
    B. No sudden movements
    C. Cooperate with them
    D. Be very polite
    E. keep hands in clear sight
    F. Have a legal gun on me H. be legally able to posses a pistol
    Don't forget to ask if you are being detained and if yes ask them to clarify why you are being detained.



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    Izzle wrote:
    this is what i have gotten out of this board so far pretty much except a few things:

    4. NO carry of any type in a federal building, or property or any school. But soon (MAYBE) we will be able to carry in federal parks.
    I believe that it is legal to carry a firearm onto university and college campuses if you are not a student. They have every right to ask you to leave though.

    7. If I am approached by the police. I should
    A. DO AS THEY SAY
    B. No sudden movements
    C. Cooperate with them
    D. Be very polite
    E. keep hands in clear sight
    F. Have a legal gun on me H. be legally able to posses a pistol
    Don't forget to ask if you are being detained and if yes ask them to clarify why you are being detained.

    Oh yeah forgot about that one.....If I am not beingdetained does that means I can go about my way? And if I am detained that means thatI am suspected ofillegal right?

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    4. NO carry of any type in a federal building, or property or any school. But soon (MAYBE) we will be able to carry in federal parks.

    5. If I ever have to use my sidearm, it has to be my last resort in SD. And I should retreat first only if it is safe to do so.

    6. If I draw my pistol I better fire it and kill the BG or I could possibly face a lawsuit. If I hit a BS then I will be charged, or sued. Also If I do kill the BG then I could still have a civil case against me

    8. When traveling with a firearm and having a valid CCW I can carry anyway I like as long as I have my CCW with me. and it is rational.


    If for any reason I have to leave my pistol in my car it should.. be locked and out of sight andI can have the CCW with me. If the pistol is isnot locked away, the CCW should be with it. Always out of reach and sight of others.

    12. Expect many looks and questions, and expect there to be hostile and non-hostile encounters from both civilians and LE.

    13. it is best to carry a level II or II retention holster.

    15. If asked by a civilian to disarm. I do not have to. In a private business I have to, In a corporation there should be something in policy stating no weapons.



    I have a couple comments and others will correct me if im wrong.

    4. You may carry onto school grounds IF you have a CPL AND you are dropping off or picking up a student. That is how i understood the law, i do not know if this applies to OC or not.

    5. I was under the impression that washington is a "stand your ground" state, but I cant recall where i read that; I know i've seen literature inline with what you wrote as well .... can anyone clarify?

    6. I take slight issue with this statement just in the way its presented. If you draw your sidearm you should be in reasonable fear for your life or the lives of your loved ones. In this situation you should; reasonably; remove the threat to your safety by any means necessary; up to and including the use of deadly force. That doesnt mean if you hit the dude in the shoulder and he's down and out you should walk up and put 2 in his head, thats murder.

    Every round you fire has a lawyer attached to it, so you may be in for a bumpy court ride no matter what; but court is always better than a coffin.

    8. As long as your talking about WA state then yes your correct. Be sure to check reciprocity laws when traveling out of state.

    If you leave your pistol in your car it should be locked in the car and out of site. I wouldnt ever remove my CPL from my person.

    12. Not necessarily. I have carried OC every day since i started in several public locations and gotten looks, certainly, and a few questions; but im not inundated with them. And i've not had one single police encounter.

    13 I think this isa matter of choice. Most of my 1911 holsters have thumbbreaks but my favorite glock holster has no retention system at all. I think its what your comfortable with. On the other hand i think everyone should take a handgun retention course of some sort.

    15. You do not have to disarm in a private business. They can either accept you as you are, or ask you to leave. They cannot take your firearm away nor should you surrender it.

    Those are my $0.02. Can anyone help me clarify #5?


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    Sorry I did not use a better terminology. But when I talked about drawing a gun,yes I am speaking in the terms of protecting my life or my love one's life, not of just receiving beat down… And when I said to make sure you kill him, I mean to say hope to kill him or it could be his word against my word in court.

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    The Old men back in the days of my youth would tell me to make sure he is dead..... That has always been in my mind that is I shoot someone I should hope I kill him. I know not to execute the guy.

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    For the record i dontbelieve in shooting to wound. If I ever have to, and i hope to god i dont, then all those rounds are going in to the big X mark over his/her heart.

    As far as court goes...well, if he lives for some reason then yes, it will be your word against his word against eyewitnesses against forensic evidence agains personal bias of the jury against skill of the lawyers in presenting the facts BLAH BLAH BLAH...

    But thats the risks of defending yourself this day and age.


    And im sure you know better than to execute someone and i wasnt trying to suggest otherwise. My dad and stepfather told me the exact same thing "Make sure he's dead". I just havent ever liked the way it was worded. My own bias.....sorry.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    5. If I ever have to use my sidearm, it has to be my last resort in SD. And I should retreat first only if it is safe to do so.

    There is no requirement to retreat in Washington, per the State Supreme Court.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    ...
    4. NO carry of any type in a federal building, or property or any school. But soon (MAYBE) we will be able to carry in federal parks.

    5. If I ever have to use my sidearm, it has to be my last resort in SD. And I should retreat first only if it is safe to do so.

    ....
    If for any reason I have to leave my pistol in my car it should.. be locked and out of sight andI can have the CCW with me. If the pistol is isnot locked away, the CCW should be with it. Always out of reach and sight of others.
    ...
    All good interpretation of how to safely and legally OC in WA, except the red text. First of all, only K-12 schools count. That being said, I will address the rest:

    5. If I ever have to use my sidearm, it has to be my last resort in SD. And I should retreat first only if it is safe to do so.


    This is not required. WA state law allows you to defend yourself against anyone attemping to commit a felony against you, or in your presence:
    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide -- By other person -- When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

    As you can see, no duty to retreat.
    If the pistol is isnot locked away, the CCW should be with it. Always out of reach and sight of others.
    Actually, this is incorrect. The law is stated as such:
    9.41.050(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    That means that a "loaded" pistol can only be placed or left in a car if the person has a CPL, and it must be concealed from view and locked (either the car is locked or it is in a locked container such as the glovebox).

    In layman's terms, you always have to leave it out of sight and locked up (car doors count as locks) if you are out of the car, and if you don't have a CPL, it can't be loaded (whether you are in the car or not). Do NOT (ever) leave your CPL with your gun. It is to be with you at all times.


    Also remember that there is a case law ruling that it has to be in a holster of some kind. "Mexican carry" or tucking it in your pants, warrants alarm.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    But soon (MAYBE) we will be able to carry in federal parks.
    You can already carry in any federal park as long as it's not a National Park. National Forests and Wildernesses are ok.

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    The Old men back in the days of my youth would tell me to make sure he is dead..... That has always been in my mind that is I shoot someone I should hope I kill him. I know not to execute the guy.
    No. You shoot to stop the threat ASAP. The best way to do this may be center of mass or head. Your goal is not to kill but to stop.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    6. If I draw my pistol I better fire it and kill the BG or I could possibly face a lawsuit. If I hit a BS then I will be charged, or sued. Also If I do kill the BG then I could still have a civil case against me
    If for any reason I have to leave my pistol in my car it should.. be locked and out of sight andI can have the CCW with me. If the pistol is isnot locked away, the CCW should be with it. Always out of reach and sight of others.
    Lots of stuff in your post, both good and bad imho.

    About the above two items... #6 is hinges upon circumstances, did you draw because you have an articuable reason to fear for your safety. Did the BG have the means to cause you harm, etc.

    Take a training class or do some reading to become more familiar with self defense issues. Bottom line, you can draw and NOT fire, depending on circumstances. It's all about the specifics, the factsand intentions.

    You could always be arrested, you could aways be sued. An arrest does not neccesarily equal a conviction, being sued does not mean you'll lose. If you carry, be prepared to spend 2k at a minimum, up to 20K, 30K + to defend youself in court (civil and criminal).

    The other point, about leaving a pistol in the car. If you have a CCW you can leave a loaded pistol in your vehicle, no CCW then the pistol must be unloaded even in a parked car. The CCW does not need to be 'left with the pistol.'

    Yes the pistol must be out of sight. The 'locked' part is about 'locked in the car' (not locked within a case, within the locked car) afaik. In other words, you can't leave a loaded pistol in an unlocked car.

    Out of reach? Doesn't matter afaik, because you would not be in the car A pistol can be loaded, in the car, within reach and not on your person afaik, provided that it is in a holster.


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    deanf wrote:
    The Old men back in the days of my youth would tell me to make sure he is dead..... That has always been in my mind that is I shoot someone I should hope I kill him. I know not to execute the guy.
    No. You shoot to stop the threat ASAP. The best way to do this may be center of mass or head. Your goal is not to kill but to stop.
    Yep. I train to "shoot to stop". Every time I fire at the range it is either a double tap or a triple tap.

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    If you ever have to shoot the BG, and I Hope that never happens, KNOW and USE the following words. "I was attempting to neutralize the threat."

    If you state that you were trying to "disable" or "wound" or any term such as those, the defense will argue to the effect that you were "malicious in your actions" and it would really go against you.

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    If you ever have to shoot the BG, and I Hope that never happens, KNOW and USE the following words. "I was attempting to neutralize the threat."

    If you state that you were trying to "disable" or "wound" or any term such as those, the defense will argue to the effect that you were "malicious in your actions" and it would really go against you.
    For sure. When you are shooting, tell yourself, "I was trying to stop the threat" or "I was attempting to neutralize the threat". You want it to come out your mouth naturally so that if you have to explain it, which means YOU WILL BE UNDER STRESS AND NOT THINKING CLEARLY DUE TO MANY FACTORS, it has to come naturally, and only training your mouth and mind to do that will make it happen.



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    Thank all of you that has replied to my post, and by addressing some things that I misunderstood, and things that I did not know… You all have giving me much need information that will keep me safe and out of trouble in possessing a firearm, and in the event of me having to use it on someone and SD, not just because it is available and at hand…. Ryas I understand where you were you was coming from in responding to my comment about making sure he is dead. I did not get offended, and I did not take what you said the wrong way. I just wanted to make myself more clear.

    one more then Where do I find RCW, and state laws that would it be on WA state websites?

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    Where do I find RCW[?]
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/




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    I highly recommend something along the lines of Defensive Hangdun from Firearms Academy of Seattle. I took this around 2000 when it was offered at Wade's (I think). Damn my legs were sore, but man was it educational and a good time.

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    Those are to very good links… I am going to take that retention class for sure. And I am going to study more laws from that WA site… It really feels good to become more educated on my state laws… I never in my life studied laws governing me. I am sure lots of people in America do not read the laws or their state. It's good to be informed and it is our responsibility to knew the laws

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    Oh also I forgot. We are to allowed to carry a pistol in a place that sales alcohol, but we are not allowed to enter places that do not allow persons under the age of 21… I am not sure we can drink would someone give me the answer to that? I would say we can't drink under arms

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Oh also I forgot. We are to allowed to carry a pistol in a place that sales alcohol, but we are not allowed to enter places that do not allow persons under the age of 21… I am not sure we can drink would someone give me the answer to that? I would say we can't drink under arms
    You can drink while armed as long as you remain sober. Personally I don't do it. Even if I am eating. It sends an odd message at the least IMHO, and I don't want any sort of impairment when I am packing.
    EDIT: Post 1000! WooHoo!!

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Oh also I forgot. We are to allowed to carry a pistol in a place that sales alcohol, but we are not allowed to enter places that do not allow persons under the age of 21… I am not sure we can drink would someone give me the answer to that? I would say we can't drink under arms
    You can drink while armed as long as you remain sober. Personally I don't do it. Even if I am eating. It sends an odd message at the least IMHO, and I don't want any sort of impairment when I am packing.
    EDIT: Post 1000! WooHoo!!
    +1. If I'm going out to a party or a bar, I leave my gun in my car or at home. I don't drink even one beer when I'm OC'ing just on principle. It is against the law to carry a gun while intoxicated, though. So, as Steve said, if you stay sober, you're legal, but remember the legal limit is 0.08% and having two glasses of wine in 30 minutes can put you over that limit.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    deanf wrote:
    The Old men back in the days of my youth would tell me to make sure he is dead..... That has always been in my mind that is I shoot someone I should hope I kill him. I know not to execute the guy.
    No. You shoot to stop the threat ASAP. The best way to do this may be center of mass or head. Your goal is not to kill but to stop.
    As someone told me when I was teaching a class. You do not shoot to kill. You use as much force necessary to stop the threat. I alway practice two to the chest one to the head.

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    IIRC, you can't be sued for defending yourself.



    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime -- Reimbursement.

    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

    legal jeopardy can be civil or criminal.


    As I interpret it, I can accidently shoot a GG while defending myself from a BG and as long as the actions I took were reasonable, I can't be sued, OR charged, for the actions I took.


    Ie. you shoot a guy that is attempting to rob you, but you had 'super penetrating' bullets, and it went through him and into a person standing behind him. You can't be sued or arrested for shooting the other person, since you were acting in defense of yourself.

    Standard IANAL disclaimer applies.
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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    IIRC, you can't be sued for defending yourself.



    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime -- Reimbursement.

    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

    legal jeopardy can be civil or criminal.


    As I interpret it, I can accidently shoot a GG while defending myself from a BG and as long as the actions I took were reasonable, I can't be sued, OR charged, for the actions I took.


    Ie. you shoot a guy that is attempting to rob you, but you had 'super penetrating' bullets, and it went through him and into a person standing behind him. You can't be sued or arrested for shooting the other person, since you were acting in defense of yourself.

    Standard IANAL disclaimer applies.
    I wouldn't say you can't be sued or arrested and tried. Just that there is a defense. You may have to prove in court that your actions were "reasonable".

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