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Thread: Open-Carry and City Ordinances

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    I live in Grand Rapids, well technically Wyoming. But I generally spend a lot of time in the more urban or sub-urban enviroments. I want to open-carry my Springfield XD .45 acp. However, I am afraid that there is some sort of city ordinance that specifically states that open carrying is not allowed. I've tried to find info on it, but thus far have been unable to get anything relating to open-carry and city law. I e-mailed the MSP, Wyoming PD, and Grand Rapids PD. So far Wyoming has responded with simply "City Law is the same as State" and that was it.

    I am wondering if anyone knows if there are city laws in this area that might conflict.

    Essentially I am concerned that I will get in trouble! :P

    If I am going to do it, I want to be 100% confident that I am not violating ANY laws, city, state, or federal!

    Advice?




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    Qodosh wrote:
    I live in Grand Rapids, well technically Wyoming. But I generally spend a lot of time in the more urban or sub-urban enviroments. I want to open-carry my Springfield XD .45 acp. However, I am afraid that there is some sort of city ordinance that specifically states that open carrying is not allowed. I've tried to find info on it, but thus far have been unable to get anything relating to open-carry and city law. I e-mailed the MSP, Wyoming PD, and Grand Rapids PD. So far Wyoming has responded with simply "City Law is the same as State" and that was it.

    I am wondering if anyone knows if there are city laws in this area that might conflict.

    Essentially I am concerned that I will get in trouble! :P

    If I am going to do it, I want to be 100% confident that I am not violating ANY laws, city, state, or federal!

    Advice?


    Qodosh, review this thread, it should answer most of your questions.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/9724.html

    Welcome to OCDO.

    P.S. Please review all achives for the Michigan Forum, you will find it well worth your time.

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    This answers my question concerning local city authorities making decision apart from state and federal law:


    2-1990 MCL 123.1102 (PREEMPTION LAW) A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to,… ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms,... This law was upheld by the MI Supreme Court.


    Thanks for the link. It helped a ton.

    I've been lurkin on the forum for a bit now, and have had the chance to look around quite a bit. But until now I haven't seen that thread.

    Thanks again.

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    Qodosh,

    Fellow Grand Rapidian here. GRPD's website says that OC is illegal. It's wrong, but it is what it is. Police can arrest you for anything they want, but it doesn't mean it will stick.

    OC is legal in the state, and therefore legal in the city's of GR and Wyoming. I would suggest that before you attempt to OC here, you look up Venator's and WARCHILD's experiences and how they handled them (provided you haven't already).

    That said, here's what I posted in another thread:

    This from the Grand Rapids PD website:
    Question:
    I know it is required to have a concealed weapons permit to carry a pistol concealed, but is it against the law to carry a pistol out in the open?
    Answer:
    With or without a Carrying a Concealed Weapons (CCW) permit, you cannot walk around with a firearm in public. If you have a valid CCW permit, you would be violating both State and City ordinances pertaining to brandishing or flourishing a firearm (reference State law 750.234e and City ordinance 9.172.) If you do not have a valid CCW permit, you would be violating the above laws and several others.

    From the Grand Rapids Code:
    Sec. 9.172. Discharging or Flourishing. No person shall discharge any firearm in the City of Grand Rapids, and no person shall draw, handle or flourish any firearm in any public street, alley or other place open to the public in the City of Grand Rapids.
    From State Code

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234e.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    History: Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991




    I’ve not found definitions for “brandish” or “flourish” in either State, or GR code.

    The following are from the dictionary:

    Flourish:
    -To make showy, wavy motions. As of the arms.

    Brandish:
    -To wave, shake, or exhibit in a menacing, challenging , or exultant way.


    This is the GRPD site the Q&A came from:
    http://www.yourgrpd.org/mailbag.php

    It is legal, but you may still get arrested because the police want to intimidate you into not exercising your rights. It's a personal decision you have to make, but make sure you understand the risks.

    Edited to add:

    The link I provided to GRPD appears to be an outdated site. I did find a newer site for the GRPD but didn't see any Q&A section there.


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    Thank you very much ghostrider for your reply. I found it helpful. And yes I have read those threads about their encounters with LEOs. Definitely a little bit troubling.

    I was in contact recently with Sgt. Thomas Deasy from the MSP. And I know he has given similar replies to others. This is the response I got frim him.

    Mr. *******, (yeah i edited out my last name)
    You are correct - open carry of a pistol is legal in Michigan as long as it's not in a pistol free zone. The interior of a vehicle is considered concealed, so a person must have a Concealed Pistol License to possess a pistol in a vehicle.

    Sincerely,



    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441



    This being the case, and coming from state police's own mouth, and with the michigan firearm preemption law, and the state legally having no restrictions on open carry....how can city police forbid open carry. That is so blantantly ignorant. I have met so many well educated GRPD officers, it's hard for me to imagine them being that ignorant.

    ghostrider, do you open carry in GR?


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    I'd ask the question in a mailed letter, or email and ask for a mailed letter back signed by the police chief if possible, and just keep that around with you, maybe in your car.

    Or probably better yet in your trunk in your gun case, seeing as you've not gotten a CPL yet.

    Also, I wouldnt trust that "yourgrpd" site, seeing as that's not even the police chief anymore, according to the official site. Something with a non official url, and doesnt seem to be kept up, is hardly a good reference.

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    MattW wrote:
    I'd ask the question in a mailed letter, or email and ask for a mailed letter back signed by the police chief if possible, and just keep that around with you, maybe in your car.

    Or probably better yet in your trunk in your gun case, seeing as you've not gotten a CPL yet.

    Also, I wouldnt trust that "yourgrpd" site, seeing as that's not even the police chief anymore, according to the official site. Something with a non official url, and doesnt seem to be kept up, is hardly a good reference.
    I just did a search and that link does appear to be an older site. I found a newer one but it doesn't have a Q&A section.

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    It sounds to me like Grand Rapids is in need of an OC picnic.:celebrate
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    MattW wrote:
    I'd ask the question in a mailed letter, or email and ask for a mailed letter back signed by the police chief if possible, and just keep that around with you, maybe in your car.

    Or probably better yet in your trunk in your gun case, seeing as you've not gotten a CPL yet.

    Also, I wouldnt trust that "yourgrpd" site, seeing as that's not even the police chief anymore, according to the official site. Something with a non official url, and doesnt seem to be kept up, is hardly a good reference.
    I just did a search and that link does appear to be an older site. I found a newer one but it doesn't have a Q&A section.
    This is the GRPD site the Q&A came from:
    http://www.yourgrpd.org/mailbag.php

    It's still up. I did recieve a quick response from the GRPD webmaster. He wanted to know where it was also so I sent him the info. Have not heard back from him at the time of this post.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I, to, live near GR. I await the GR City Attorney's comments on this.

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    Sailorwatson wrote:
    I, to, live near GR. I await the GR City Attorney's comments on this.
    The city attorney has not seen this info I'm guessing. I sent it to the Chief some time back. Recently I sent some info to the webmaster for the police web page and he is looking into it. He stated that the website I saw the info in is not theirs, but he was going to forward the info to the appropriate people. I don't know if they did anything to the web page as I have not checked on it recently and have not heard back from the PD contact.

    Feel free to send the info I posted directly to the attorney if you like. The point remains that no local ordinances on open carry are legal.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    The information is still up, as of today (5/23/2008)
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    The information is still up, as of today (5/23/2008)
    Can you post the website url for this info? I can't find it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    http://www.yourgrpd.org/mailbag.php

    The erronous info on open as well as concealed carry is about half way down the page.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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    Been trying to catch up on all the post since I am fairly new.

    Just sent a e-mail to GRPD.org and stated I think they are misinforming the public about o.c. Cited MCL 750.234d and mentioned the AG deferring to the dictionary to define "brandish" I even gave my first name and phone, we can discuss it if they have the "time" for the poor unenlightened of the world.(doubt they will even post an answer)

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    And I doubt they will correct their info either.

    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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    I notice there are several people on this site out in the GR area, as the old saying goes "slow and steady wins the race". Hopefully soon the light will go on in these people's heads.

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