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Thread: What do you all think?

  1. #1
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    I know this has nothing to do about gun rights or anything of the sort. But I thought it would be interesting to get peoples opinions on this subject.

    The subject is drinking age. There has been discussion in the news about different states that are discussing lowering the drinking age. Some states are using the argument that is a person call fight with the military overseas they should be able to buy a drink.

    Here are a few links to articles. I am just curious to what people think.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...nkingage_N.htm

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...king-age_N.htm

    http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008...iers-possible/

  2. #2
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    18 is fine with me....just my opinion..

  3. #3
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    i am 19 as most of you know... but i still dont think beer should be available to anyone under the age of 18... HOWEVER i think there should be "house" laws, that allow people 18 and over to drink at home, under the supervision of adults. and as long as the 18+ year old doesnt go outside, off of their property, than it should be ok. BUT if the minor ignores this law and drives after he gets drunk/tipsy, the parents should be charged for all of the things the 18 year oldis charged with as well. AND the parents should be charged with anything else the judge can throw at them like allowing illegal activity with no intent to stop it, somethin like that. i do drink wine sometimes on a special occasion though, i do it for purposes other than getting drunk though, i hate being drunk lol.

    when dad was in the military, he said that anyone over the age of 18 could drink... and now im told that you have to ASK for permission to drink if youre under 21 in themilitary... well the way i see it, youre old enough to get killed for the country but youre not old enough to drink? thats messed up! (military wise lol)

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    rocknsnow wrote:
    I know this has nothing to do about gun rights or anything of the sort. But I thought it would be interesting to get peoples opinions on this subject.

    The subject is drinking age. There has been discussion in the news about different states that are discussing lowering the drinking age. Some states are using the argument that is a person call fight with the military overseas they should be able to buy a drink.

    Here are a few links to articles. I am just curious to what people think.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...nkingage_N.htm

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...king-age_N.htm

    http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008...iers-possible/
    I FIRMLY believe that a person is considered an adult at the age of 18 and there should NOT be ANY restrictions at all for an adult, wether that is carrying a firearm, drinking, getting married, having kids...Bla,bla,bla.

    Just my .40

    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    I FIRMLY believe that a person is considered an adult at the age of 18 and there should NOT be ANY restrictions at all for an adult, wether that is carrying a firearm, drinking, getting married, having kids...Bla,bla,bla.

    Just my .40

    TJ
    +2. (yup, DOUBLE POINTS!)

    If you can fight and die for your country at 18, you should sure as hell be able to drink to it! I personally don't drink, but that doesn't matter.

  6. #6
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    I'm not sure I agree with charging the parents for all the crimes of the child - when you're 18, you should be considered an independent adult, the consequences of your actions should come back on you and you alone. Drink, smoke, sex, die, debt, drive, etc - they are all yours at 18 - at least that's how I feel it should be.

  7. #7
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    Lower the age to 18, and while you are at it get rid of most other laws relating to alcohol. Open container, drinking and driving, public intoxication, these are some of the most useless laws around.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Lower the age to 18, and while you are at it get rid of most other laws relating to alcohol. Open container, drinking and driving, public intoxication, these are some of the most useless laws around.
    Fogrider, I sence sarcasm in your "voice".

    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    FogRider wrote:
    Lower the age to 18, and while you are at it get rid of most other laws relating to alcohol. Open container, drinking and driving, public intoxication, these are some of the most useless laws around.
    Fogrider, I sence sarcasm in your "voice".

    TJ
    You sence wrong. The only laws less effective than gun laws are drug/alcohol laws. Laws concerning stuff like your BAC just about define the word "arbitrary". There is a law in CO that makes it illegal to leave children under a certain age home alone if anything happens to them. As long as they are safe, nothing is illegal with leaving them by themselves while you run down the street for a little while. I'd like to see something like that with drunk driving. If I can safely operate a vehicle at .10, why should it be illegal? Hell, I'm more alert leaving a bar with a beer or three in me than I am on my morning commute. So get rid of the the arbitrary zero-tolerance laws, and stiffen up the penalties for accidents where alcohol is a factor. Now I don't have to worry about going to jail for a couple beers, but if I know if I run someone down while plastered I go away for a long time.

  10. #10
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    FogRider wrote:
    Hell, I'm more alert leaving a bar with a beer or three in me than I am on my morning commute.
    More alert, maybe, but your reaction time is much worse.

  11. #11
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    rocknsnow wrote:
    I know this has nothing to do about gun rights or anything of the sort. But I thought it would be interesting to get peoples opinions on this subject.
    Let me offer a slightly different point of view than you are getting elsewhere. Sometimes, pure principle gives way to practical realities. One practical reality is who is likely to have access to alcohol.

    The simply reality is, there are 18 year olds still attending high school. There are recently graduated 18 year olds who date high school students and/or attend high school events. So a legal drinking age of 18 has the practical effect of introducing legally purchased alcohol into high school settings and that takes us all the way down to 14 years of age.

    On the other hand, a legal drinking age of 19-21 tends to keep legal alcohol limited to the college scene which has a lower age of about 18, maybe 17 at the lowest.

    I've been told that 18 year olds in the military can buy and consume alcohol on base. I have no problems with that as it avoids the issue of introducing legal alcohol into high school parties.

    I share with others the principled concern over imposing adult consequences while not allowing full adult rights.

    At the same time, I also note it was the founding fathers themselves who imposed age limits of 25, 30, and 35 for holding office in the House of Representatives, Senate, and President/VP respectively. So the practice of withholding FULL and TOTAL rights of adulthood until some age beyond which the consequences of adulthood are imposed is as old as our nation.

    I will also note, much to the chagrin of some of our younger members no doubt, recent medical research indicating the demonstrable physical immaturity of the human brain even up to the early 20s and disproportionate damage done by alcohol use to such young brains, as well as the reduced critical thinking available. Now, before anyone gets too upset, wait 10 years year and then as a 29 year old think back about how you thought and acted at 19, compared to how you do so at 29. Yes, there are 19 year olds who are more mature and better equipped than some 29 year olds. But I've met VERY few 19 year olds who are as mature, stable, etc as they are 10 years later.

    Anyway, just a different perspective on a very off topic subject.

    Flame away, I've got my asbestos jumpsuit on.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  12. #12
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    i am 19 as most of you know... but i still dont think beer should be available to anyone under the age of 18... HOWEVER i think there should be "house" laws, that allow people 18 and over to drink at home, under the supervision of adults. and as long as the 18+ year old doesnt go outside, off of their property, than it should be ok.
    This certainly seems reasonable, so long as the parents of all children drinking are present. I'd hate to see a legal excuse for one "cool" parent to host a party house without the consent of other parents.

    I do give tremendous sway to respecting how parents wish to raise children.

    As a practical reality, this law already exists in large measure for religious purposes as Catholics administer first communion and Jews have their children participate in Passover and other sacraments.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  13. #13
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    swillden wrote:
    More alert, maybe, but your reaction time is much worse.
    Reaction time is tied into my level of alertness. Some friends and me got a breathalyser and ran some informal tests on ourselves, and came to the conclusion that at .10 we were still functional drivers. This was done over several weekends, that way we could have some stone sober judges. I feel that we are good judges of our own and each others capability's as long as we are not completely wasted. Yes, alcohol will reduce your ability's. But unless you believe you need to be at 100% before you get behind the wheel, there is a range where you can be ever so slightly impaired (for any reason, alcohol, fatigue, distractions), and still be safe. This is done every day, by damn near everyone on the road. I am not advocating getting smashed and heading home, but I don't know a single person that can't drive safely at just above the legal limit. I know a man who drinks like a fish throughout the entire day (unless at work), but you can't tell. He functions better with some alcohol in his system. Again, I am not advocating this, I am just saying that the laws we have are completely arbitrary and completely useless. Much like gun laws, I have not seen evidence of any liquor law doing anything to help. It's feel good legislation.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Reaction time is tied into my level of alertness. Some friends and me got a breathalyser and ran some informal tests on ourselves, and came to the conclusion that at .10 we were still functional drivers.
    I note that BAC laws are intended to give a safety margin. Most of those ticketed for DUI are at 0.12 to 0.16 or even higher.

    Alcohol is KNOWN to impair driving and since it is possible to set a legal limit on BAC, we have done so. Were it possible to quantify sleep deprivation or the level of OTC drugs that impair driving, I'd favor quantifiable limits there as well. I certainly favor "arbitrary" but quantified limits over 101 opinions from cops and judges about whether you were driving safely or not.

    Sorry, but just as we do not and should not allow someone to shoot bullets into the air randomly until someone is actually hit, there is no reason to allow someone to drive in an impaired state until someone is actually hurt. DUI is no longer just theoretical, it is well documented and is involved in about half of all fatal crashes in this nation. If you are drinking anywhere close to .10, I don't want you on the road with me. No offense. But the first thing impaired is your judgement and that affects your ability to determine just how impaired you really are.

    And bear in mind we have a LOT of seemingly arbitrary laws on the books; things like stopping for red lights and proceeding through green. Or slowing to 20 mph in school zones. A little thought and/or research will reveal the practical wisdom behind such "arbitrary" rules of the road.

    I do not favor lowering current limits. But I certainly think 0.08 to 0.10 are perfectly appropriate levels to allow safe drivers to have a drink or two with dinner, while providing a certain safety margin to the general motoring public.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  15. #15
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    I grew up with 18.

  16. #16
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    I know this has nothing to do about gun rights or anything of the sort. But I thought it would be interesting to get peoples opinions on this subject.

    Let me offer a slightly different point of view than you are getting elsewhere. Sometimes, pure principle gives way to practical realities. One practical reality is who is likely to have access to alcohol.

    The simply reality is, there are 18 year olds still attending high school. There are recently graduated 18 year olds who date high school students and/or attend high school events. So a legal drinking age of 18 has the practical effect of introducing legally purchased alcohol into high school settings and that takes us all the way down to 14 years of age.

    On the other hand, a legal drinking age of 19-21 tends to keep legal alcohol limited to the college scene which has a lower age of about 18, maybe 17 at the lowest.
    Umm, not that I ever noticed. Just anecdotal, mind you.

    style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"

    I've been told that 18 year olds in the military can buy and consume alcohol on base. I have no problems with that as it avoids the issue of introducing legal alcohol into high school parties.
    Only at overseas bases, to match the local laws. Nowhere in the US that I know of.


    I share with others the principled concern over imposing adult consequences while not allowing full adult rights.

    At the same time, I also note it was the founding fathers themselves who imposed age limits of 25, 30, and 35 for holding office in the House of Representatives, Senate, and President/VP respectively. So the practice of withholding FULL and TOTAL rights of adulthood until some age beyond which the consequences of adulthood are imposed is as old as our nation.
    Well, I don't think someone straight out of college at age 24 would have enough life experience to be an effective President, so I would concur here. Same reason we don't make 19 & 20 year olds Chief Master Sergeants in the Air Force. But I don't think you can conflate drinking beer with being President. And if you want to find out how a person deals with limiltations and inhibitions, not many better ways than by adding alcohol and observing. Good way to give/learn some life experience too.





    I will also note, much to the chagrin of some of our younger members no doubt, recent medical research indicating the demonstrable physical immaturity of the human brain even up to the early 20s and disproportionate damage done by alcohol use to such young brains, as well as the reduced critical thinking available. Now, before anyone gets too upset, wait 10 years year and then as a 29 year old think back about how you thought and acted at 19, compared to how you do so at 29. Yes, there are 19 year olds who are more mature and better equipped than some 29 year olds. But I've met VERY few 19 year olds who are as mature, stable, etc as they are 10 years later.

    Anyway, just a different perspective on a very off topic subject.

    Flame away, I've got my asbestos jumpsuit on.

    Charles










  17. #17
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    rocknsnow wrote:
    I know this has nothing to do about gun rights or anything of the sort. But I thought it would be interesting to get peoples opinions on this subject.

    The subject is drinking age. There has been discussion in the news about different states that are discussing lowering the drinking age. Some states are using the argument that is a person call fight with the military overseas they should be able to buy a drink.

    Here are a few links to articles. I am just curious to what people think.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...nkingage_N.htm

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...king-age_N.htm

    http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008...iers-possible/
    Did you get busted for underage drinking? :P

    About the military thing...

    When I was stationed in Fort Carson, Colorado in 2004, the commanding general could, and did authorize persons under 21 to consume alcohol. It was very restricted, limited to things like promotion celebrations that were after hours, while under your commanding officers supervision.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  18. #18
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    Shaolin wrote:
    I grew up with 18.
    Would that be the legal drinking age, or the amendment? :P:P

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  19. #19
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    I would put the age at 110.

    If no one could drink until the age of 110, a lot more people would live to that ripe old age.

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    Sa45auto wrote:
    I would put the age at 110.

    I no one could drink until the age of 110, a lot more people would live to that ripe old age.
    The question here is, without beer, who would want to live to 110?

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  22. #22
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    FogRider wrote:
    Sa45auto wrote:
    I would put the age at 110.

    I no one could drink until the age of 110, a lot more people would live to that ripe old age.
    The question here is, without beer, who would want to live to 110?
    I remember when I was a little kid, I saw what I thought was a can of pop sitting in a neighbors window sil.

    I picked it up and took a swig. I promptly spit the terriable stuff out and put the can back. It was beer.

    When I was a young man I was on a trip and I had a long layover in Salt Lake City. While I was waiting for the next bus, at about 2:00 in the morning, I was walking around down town, to pass the time till my bus left at 6:00 AM.

    I ran into a guy and we started talking.

    We walked by a beer joint and he offered to buy me a beer.

    I thought, what the heck and took him up on it.

    It still tasted terriable.

    If I live to be 110, it will be without beer.

  23. #23
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    I know this has nothing to do about gun rights or anything of the sort. But I thought it would be interesting to get peoples opinions on this subject.

    The subject is drinking age. There has been discussion in the news about different states that are discussing lowering the drinking age. Some states are using the argument that is a person call fight with the military overseas they should be able to buy a drink.

    Here are a few links to articles. I am just curious to what people think.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...nkingage_N.htm

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...king-age_N.htm

    http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008...iers-possible/
    Did you get busted for underage drinking? :P

    About the military thing...

    When I was stationed in Fort Carson, Colorado in 2004, the commanding general could, and did authorize persons under 21 to consume alcohol. It was very restricted, limited to things like promotion celebrations that were after hours, while under your commanding officers supervision.

    I didn't get busted. I just read this after a co-worker sent me a link. I just thought I would be fun to hear some discussion. I turn 21 next month so I don't really care. Nor do I really drink either.


  24. #24
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    well... im not surprised that UT doesn't have a drinking age of 25 (smoking age is 19. WTF is up with that?), or is dry in most counties.

    I never knew what a state liquor store was tillI moved here, but i always bought liquor on a military base.

    I drink maybe 3x's a year andI dont like beer.

    Most people at 18 IMO still arn't mature enough to handle alcohol at that age.I think its bad when you offer to your friends now to drive them home when ever they need it from a bar, and they call you while they are driving drunk and they are 27yo.

    If they want to lower it fine,I snuck in at the 18yo drinking age to get shut down and have to wait till I was 21 to drink again, lol.

    There was a reason they made it 21, keep it there.

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