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What does the law say about ignorance?

DreQo

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All though a law related question is normally more state specific, I'm curious about this question in general, and would be interested to see if different states deal with the issue differently. Is ignorance of the law truely no excuse? What if you know the law, but don't know you're breaking it?

I wandered into a local restaurant this afternoon to pick up some fresh fish, and I was openly carrying, like usual. The conversations immediately started, as some of the employees had seen me there before, while others hadn't. Everything was cheerful and relaxed.

Now, the first time I visited the restaurant, I wasn't carrying since I wasn't sure if they served alcohol or not, and here in NC you can't carry where alcohol is served for consumption (open or concealed). After thoroughly reading through their menus and observing the restaurant, I was satisfied that they didn't serve alcohol.

Anyway back to the story. As I was standing there waiting for my food, I glanced down and noticed a rather small sign on the low counter. It said "Under no circumstances will anyone under 21 be sold alcohol". I thought to myself "that's an odd sign to have. Of course they wont serve anyone under 21, it's feder....uh oh". I kept my cool as my eyes darted around the restaurant looking for some other clue that they served alcohol. I read the menu on the wall, and the paper menu in my hands. I found nothing; not so much as beer or wine. I then glanced at the drink cooler that was positioned behind the counter, in the corner next to the drink fountains. I stepped forward in order to see the whole cooler. On the two bottom shelves, there were two rows of Corona and Miller. :banghead: Now at that point I realized I was officially breaking the law. Luckily, my food had just come off the grill, so I nonchalantly got my stuff and left.

Apparently they started serving beer since the first time that I was there, and they haven't done much to advertise it since.So here's the problem. I had no intention to break the law. I went through a reasonable number of steps to verify that my activities were indeed legal. Unfortunately, the situation changed, unbeknownst to me. If an officer had happened to walk in and recognize that I was armed illegally, I'm sure I would have been arrested. The question is, what are my chances of getting out of it in the long run? Would my lack of intent and knowledge of the situation matter? LEO's chime if here as well. I'm curious what you would do faced with an intelligent, well mannered person that broke the law, but swore he didn't know. Might you let them off? Or is the law the law, no matter what?
 

FogRider

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This type of situation is exactly why the justice system was set up like it is, to make intelegent rulings on the intent of the law. Technically you were breaking the law, but any intelegent person could see that there was no intent, and that once you realised what was going on you tried to fix the situation. A reasonable judge would let you go.
 

thnycav

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I think if you where polite to the police officer and told him what you had said in the post he would let you go on a warning.
 

DreQo

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Doug Huffman wrote:
More precisely, an element of crime was absent because there was no mens rea.

My latin needs to be brushed up, so in the mean time I googled the term. While reading up on general legal terms regarding intent and liability, I found this on a wiki article:
The general rule under U.S. law is that "ignorance of the law or a mistake of law is no defense to criminal prosecution." See Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192 (1991).
At first I read this as ignorance is no excuse, period. After a second look, however,I'm wondering if the term "prosecution" was used deliberately, in that while one cannot avoid a trial based on ignorance or mistake, this is not to say that one may not avoid conviction based on the same.* Am I interpreting this correctly?

(*Off Topic: Was that a run-on sentence? I'd appreciate a ruling from the grammar police on that one lol. :D)
 

bobernet

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DreQo wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
More precisely, an element of crime was absent because there was no mens rea.

My latin needs to be brushed up, so in the mean time I googled the term. While reading up on general legal terms regarding intent and liability, I found this on a wiki article:
The general rule under U.S. law is that "ignorance of the law or a mistake of law is no defense to criminal prosecution." See Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192 (1991).
At first I read this as ignorance is no excuse, period. After a second look, however,I'm wondering if the term "prosecution" was used deliberately, in that while one cannot avoid a trial based on ignorance or mistake, this is not to say that one may not avoid conviction based on the same.* Am I interpreting this correctly?

(*Off Topic: Was that a run-on sentence? I'd appreciate a ruling from the grammar police on that one lol. :D)

The whole premise behind "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is based on laws related to malum in se, that is, things that are criminal/evil intrinsically. All men are supposed to know that theft, assault, murder, rape, etc are inherently "wrong." And so, arguing that you didn't know it was illegal is no defense.

In today's world when we have literally tens of thousands of pages just in federal laws, administrative codes, regulations, etc that largely constitute malum prohibitum (criminal because it's prohibited) - it is hard to argue that any person isn't ignorant on some point of law.

Doug's post is terribly important, and sadly neglected in our justice system today. Mens rea is a crucial element of a crime. You cannot (morally) and should not (legally) become a felon by accident. If there is no intent, there is no crime. If the brakes fail on your car, you are not now guilty of reckless driving. If the sear on your rifle fails and goes full auto, you are not now guilty of possessing an unregistered automatic weapon. Etc, etc.
 

bobernet

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From: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:ePRekTEqNx8J:caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl%3Fcourt%3Dwa%26vol%3D2001_app/25510-3%26invol

Which is the google cache of:

State v. Leavitt, No. 25510-3-II, (Slip Op., July 20, 2001).



July 2001 STATE v. LEAVITT 1

Cause No. 25510-3-II



[No. 25510-3-II. Division Two. July 20, 2001.]

STATE OF WASHINGTON, ) No. 25510-3-II


Code:
Miller v. Commonwealth, 492 S.E.2d 482, 487, 488-89 (Va. Ct.

App. 1997) (citing Raley v. Ohio, 360 U.S. 423, 439, 79 S. Ct.

1257, 3 L. Ed. 2d 1344 (1959)).

 The Miller court articulated the basic conflict here --

between the long-standing principle that "ignorance of the law is no

defense" and the inherent unfairness of an authority figure, here, a

sentencing judge, inadvertently misleading a defendant about his legal

obligations such that the defendant relied on this misinformation to his

detriment:

 Reflecting the axiom that everyone is "presumed to know the

 law," the common law rule that "ignorance of the law is no

 excuse" admitted of few exceptions. The common law position

 was based on the fact that most common law crimes were

 malum in se. Seen as "inherently and essentially evil

 without any regard to the fact of [their] being noticed or

 punished by the law of the state," Black's Law Dictionary 959

 (6th ed.1990), ignorance of the prohibition of such crimes was

 simply untenable. The rationale underlying the rule is less

 compelling for crimes that are malum prohibitum, viz.,

 acts that are "wrong because prohibited," not by virtue of

 their inherent character. Black's Law Dictionary 960 (6th ed.

 1990). Yet, the proposition that ignorance of the law is no

 excuse generally maintains with respect to crimes malum

 prohibitum, largely for pragmatic purposes. Although

 leading at times to seemingly "unfair" results, rigid

 application of the rule promotes the policy it serves: "to

 encourage people to learn and know the law." . . . E.g., . . .

 Oliver W. Holmes, The Common Law 48 (1881) . . . .

 Nonetheless, "[w]ith `the increasing complexity of law, the

 multiplication of crimes mala prohibita, and a more

 exact definition of fundamental principles of criminal

 liability,' certain exceptions to the general rule have

 emerged." [/9]  . . . . The exception at issue addresses the

 legal consequences of a violation of the criminal law by an

 individual who takes measures to learn what conduct the

 government has proscribed, but is misadvised by the government

 itself. A number of states have adopted statutes bearing on

 the subject, but Virginia has not. [/10]



Miller, 492 S.E.2d at 485 (1997) /11  (citations omitted). /12

Nor has the State of Washington /13  adopted such a statute.

 We agree with Miller that the "ignorance of the law" axiom

should not automatically apply to malum prohibitum, such as

unlawful firearm possession, in those instances where the predicate

sentencing court has failed to follow the law requiring it to advise the

defendant that he may no longer possess firearms. The Miller

court referenced the United States Supreme Court's decision in

Raley, 360 U.S. 423, which found that a governmental

commission's representations to Raley were legally erroneous and

"active[ly] misleading," especially because the commission was "the voice

of the State most presently speaking to the [defendants]."
 

imperialism2024

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Just say that you have a dangerous job as a citizen, and you just want to get home to your family safely.



But the general impression that I get is in the criminal "justice" system of today, put in place by everyone who wants to be "tough on crime", intent is merely an aggravating circumstance, rather than an element of a crime. The only place where ignorance might work is in dealing with responding LEOs... I'd hope that most LEOs would give leeway if they catch someone in a situation like you found yourself in, as you had no intent to do harm, but once it gets past them, you'd probably be railroaded into a felony conviction.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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I wish I had something pithy, or at least as well said as the above posters :).

All I can say is that in my limited experience, ignorance of the law is only an excuse if you Are the law.
 

deepdiver

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Apr 2, 2007
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Southeast, Missouri, USA
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Mike wrote:
There is also a "mistake of fact" defense at common law that can be asserted - your milage may vary state by state, and judge by judge.
Could you elaborate on that? I have not heard of it previously.
 

Armed4Life

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Mar 6, 2007
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Pinal County, AZ, ,
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DreQo,
I found myself in a similar situation here in AZ....nothing on the menu, no liquor license posted, no easily recognizable signs that alcohol is served on the premises. Just happened to glance at the bottom shelf of a refrigerator behind the counter and voila!!! Bud Light, Coors Light and Miller Time. At that point I decided it was "exit stage left" time.
 
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