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Help me choose a new sub-compact

deepdiver

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Weak 9mm wrote:
I'm not sure whether or not all Glocks now have supported chambers now. I'm certain that all 9mm Glocks have a fully supported chamber though, and I'm pretty sure that's been the case for all three generations. I like the loaded chamber indicator on the 3rd generation Glocks too!


As for KBs:

I'm not certain on this, but it does seem like there are other handguns that also lack fully supported chambers, such as some manufacturer's 1911s. It's not always a bad thing, but I think it could be a problem under certain circumstances.

The KBs I've heard about usually seem to be associated with things like using reloaded brass in a non-supported chamber. Imagine if you reloaded a round and the part of it that was situated over the unsupported area before was somehow exactly repositioned in that spot the next time it was chambered. If the first load was slightly excessive, or if anything was wrong with the brass which caused it to become weakened, the area may fail and cause the KB. I've heard of somewhat rare occurances involving factory new ammo that came overcharged causing the KB.

Another thing I've heard is that using non-jacketed ammunition in Glocks can cause significant fouling, and if not cleaned more rigorously might increase pressures. Combine that with a slightly overcharged reloaded round that's oriented in the worst possible position and you've got a possible KB.

A squib could obviously cause a KB in any gun if it isn't noticed.



As you said, there really have been a lot of good suggestions in this thread. Hopefully we'll find out what they decided to purchase! I'm excited to find out honestly.
You are correct re: 9mm's according to my Glock books and other research. I was generalizing and should have stated the caveat that to the best of my knowledge, all Glock 9mm have always had fully supported chambers.

The polygonal rifling in a Glock does reportedly make it more suceptible to lead fouling if using non-jacketed ammo. I have not read of this being a confirmed contributor in kB's but I have read of it being theorized as a possible contributing factor, but then I am not a Glock expert. And definitely any firearm can kB and there are certainly many cases on the net of those other than Glocks doing so. I still can't but wonder if the combination of unsupported barrels and the ramp resting on the lip of the magazine makes the Glock less likely to be able to contain a ruptured case that other designs. Maybe I'll become an armorer for my next career and find out :)
 

Weak 9mm

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I'll probably carry a Rohrbaugh R9 (9mm) when necessary.

Man that looks like a great little pocket pistol! Around how much do they cost? I can't find that info anywhere, lol.


I have not read of this being a confirmed contributor in kB's but I have read of it being theorized as a possible contributing factor, but then I am not a Glock expert.
Same here, from what I understand there are people who think it's a possible contributing factor. I doubt it would cause a KB on its own with regular cleaning and only using a few non-jacketed rounds in a session with the 9mm versions. But with an unsupported chamber and no cleaning, maybe it could... I don't have a Glock owner's manual on hand (I have an electronic copy on my other computer), but I think it does mention that you're not to use non-jacketed ammo. I don't really plan on finding out the hard way though, lol.
 

Weak 9mm

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Yeah the extensive use of high quality metals and the carbon fiber grips made me figure it would be expensive. I saw the video on youtube, and it certainly performs way better than I'd expected for the size. That thing is the size of a tiny .32 pocket pistol. He was nailing the metal target at 25 yards and at 7 yards the group on a paper target was quite small. The recoil appeared to be very controllable for the size. This also amazed me.

But of course as you said, it appears to be purely a life saving device rather than a target/fun pistol.
 

Weak 9mm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRnXiINs5aE

This was the video I was talking about. I bet he can handle it well, but it looks easier to shoot than the PF-9's I've seen. That's the closest comparison I can think of. I can imagine it's still worse than a regular or even compact 9mm, but it is surprising how little muzzle rise he experiences. Maybe he has strong arms/wrists, lol. :)
 

Eeyore

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kmcdowel wrote:
Here are the four sub-compact's I've come up with so far. Please let me know if I am missing any other sub-compact's in the $600 and under rage (must be at least .380)

Taurus pt111

Glock 26

Springfield XD subcompact 3"

Kel-Tech pf9

Tell me what your thoughts are of the above four (and the one's I'm sure I missed) It is greatly appreciated.
Your list seems to favor striker-fired vs hammer-fired weapons. If you don't mind a DA/SA, the Bersa Thunder9 "UltraCompact" is a good option in the same price range as the Taurus, especially if you're a lefty.

I carry a PT111, my first gun. The ergo's are very good (it's comparable in size to the XD9SC, but the grip is a little taller so I can get my entire hand onto it--barely), and it has a manual safety if that's important to you. You can get one for less than $350, maybe less since they seem to be phasing out the PT111 in favor of a new 24/7 Subcompact line. The trigger is OK but not great. You do get what you pay for--it feels a little flimsy compared to the more-expensive pieces. Mine was completely reliable until the captive firing pin assembly broke recently, necessitating a 6-week trip to the factory (lifetime warranty). For these reasons, I've been shopping others.

Ergo's are very important to me, therefore I dislike Glocks. If you shoot the XD and Glock side-by-side, I expect you'll find considerably moremuzzle flip on the Glock. (I certainly did!) If you can deal with that goofy grip angle, you owe it to yourself to try the Steyr M-A1 before you buy a mid-size Glock. (Awesome trigger, less blocky, less muzzle flip. Only available in Compact (4") size, though, so not as concealable as the subcompacts.)

That said, definitely consider the XD if a manual safety is not a "must have" for you. The ergo's are good (though not perfect IMHO),their quality is good, and it's easy to find holsters and other accessories for them. Look at the dimensions of the XD9 SC (3") vs the Compact (4"): the length of the SC is only 3/4" less than the Compact. If you're going to use a magazine extension or "shoe" with the SC, the height difference between the SC and the Compact becomes negligible. In that case, I'd choose the Compact over the SC--better accuracy and controllability with almost no decrease in concealability.

If a multiple safeties areimportant to you, look at the M&P9 Compact, which can be configured with optional manual safety and/or magazine safety. Grip ergo's are better than the XD IMHO, but I don't like the trigger as much.

No experience with Kel-tec.

Have fun shopping! :)
 

Unclebuck

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I just bought the Taurus .45 Millenium. In my opinion a damn good gun for $330.00.

Took it to the range and I loved it. Small frame little bit of a kick. Smallest .45 I could find. Bass Pro Shop had it on sell.
 

Aegis

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Eeyore wrote:
kmcdowel wrote:
Here are the four sub-compact's I've come up with so far. Please let me know if I am missing any other sub-compact's in the $600 and under rage (must be at least .380)

Taurus pt111

Glock 26

Springfield XD subcompact 3"

Kel-Tech pf9

Tell me what your thoughts are of the above four (and the one's I'm sure I missed) It is greatly appreciated.
Your list seems to favor striker-fired vs hammer-fired weapons. If you don't mind a DA/SA, the Bersa Thunder9 "UltraCompact" is a good option in the same price range as the Taurus, especially if you're a lefty.

I carry a PT111, my first gun. The ergo's are very good (it's comparable in size to the XD9SC, but the grip is a little taller so I can get my entire hand onto it--barely), and it has a manual safety if that's important to you. You can get one for less than $350, maybe less since they seem to be phasing out the PT111 in favor of a new 24/7 Subcompact line. The trigger is OK but not great. You do get what you pay for--it feels a little flimsy compared to the more-expensive pieces. Mine was completely reliable until the captive firing pin assembly broke recently, necessitating a 6-week trip to the factory (lifetime warranty). For these reasons, I've been shopping others.

Ergo's are very important to me, therefore I dislike Glocks. If you shoot the XD and Glock side-by-side, I expect you'll find considerably moremuzzle flip on the Glock. (I certainly did!) If you can deal with that goofy grip angle, you owe it to yourself to try the Steyr M-A1 before you buy a mid-size Glock. (Awesome trigger, less blocky, less muzzle flip. Only available in Compact (4") size, though, so not as concealable as the subcompacts.)

That said, definitely consider the XD if a manual safety is not a "must have" for you. The ergo's are good (though not perfect IMHO),their quality is good, and it's easy to find holsters and other accessories for them. Look at the dimensions of the XD9 SC (3") vs the Compact (4"): the length of the SC is only 3/4" less than the Compact. If you're going to use a magazine extension or "shoe" with the SC, the height difference between the SC and the Compact becomes negligible. In that case, I'd choose the Compact over the SC--better accuracy and controllability with almost no decrease in concealability.

If a multiple safeties areimportant to you, look at the M&P9 Compact, which can be configured with optional manual safety and/or magazine safety. Grip ergo's are better than the XD IMHO, but I don't like the trigger as much.

No experience with Kel-tec.

Have fun shopping! :)
Have to agree with you; definately love my XD .40SC..very comfortable to CC and its grips are made well for a 12 + 1 extended mag.
 

Aegis

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Unclebuck wrote:
I just bought the Taurus .45 Millenium. In my opinion a damn good gun for $330.00.

Took it to the range and I loved it. Small frame little bit of a kick. Smallest .45 I could find. Bass Pro Shop had it on sell.

If your looking for something with serious stopping power in a small frame; My brother carries an EAA 10 mm.

It does have some recoil, but its comfortable in the hand and the pocketbook
 

Weak 9mm

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Oh man I've been looking at that guy too. The 10mm Witness compact. How small is it in terms of the height of the grip? I have a Glock 17 but I'm concerned the Witness compact's grip wont be much shorter. That's the problem I see with concealing the G17 without using something like a SOB holster. Note that I'm a skinny guy, so it really couldn't be concealed on me with the standard hip holsters unless I were wearing a jacket or something.
 

Aegis

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Weak 9mm wrote:
Oh man I've been looking at that guy too. The 10mm Witness compact. How small is it in terms of the height of the grip? I have a Glock 17 but I'm concerned the Witness compact's grip wont be much shorter. That's the problem I see with concealing the G17 without using something like a SOB holster. Note that I'm a skinny guy, so it really couldn't be concealed on me with the standard hip holsters unless I were wearing a jacket or something.


Its slightly larger than the XD 40 SC, and heavier....its has a bit of recoil as well, but I dont think concealability should be an issue regardless of your size.

I have large hands but the EAA is comfortable for both My brother ( he is a small fella) and myself.

Let me put it this way; myBrother is 5'8 and 140 lbs.....you would never notice it on him if hewore his t-shirt over it.
 

concealed

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I'll second the Ruger LCP with HydraShok rounds. I've put about 1000 rounds through mine, all kinds of ammo, and not one problem.

That said, any gun can be concealed. Just think Hawaiian shirts. :cool:
 

Bundabar

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I have a Glock G27 I carry concealed. While shopping I looked atSpringfield, Smith&Wesson, H&K, Berreta, Sig, and Ruger. Quite honestly, I chose the Glock because it fit the best in my hand and the 9 rounds of .40 in a sub-compact is nice too!

If your anywhere in the Virginia area you should made a trip here too:

http://www.virginiaarms.com/

The store has a huge selection, anything from .22's to AK's
 

Weak 9mm

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I have a Glock G27 I carry concealed. While shopping I looked at Springfield, Smith&Wesson, H&K, Berreta, Sig, and Ruger. Quite honestly, I chose the Glock because it fit the best in my hand and the 9 rounds of .40 in a sub-compact is nice too.

Yeah the sub-compact Glocks offer a good amount of firepower in a small package and are guns you can actually shoot regularly. That's probably the best thing about a sub-compact Glock, you can actually use the darn thing.


June "Gun Tests" did a test and comparison of the new LCP and the P3AT. Bottom line is they gave the nod to the P3AT because it was easier to control the recoil and the LCP has some minor feeding problems, but they liked them both overall.
That reminds me about one of the things that annoys me. It's people who complain about Kel-Tec's or talk sh*t about them. I have mentioned in public, on a number of occasions, my intentions of purchasing a PF-9 or P3AT for the purpose of a pocket gun. People would literally scoff or give me this look like, "are you crazy?" The thing is, these people were so stuck up that they'd obviously never even held one or known anyone who had. I know of quite a few legitimate writers and regular old people who carry the Kel-Tec pocket guns successfully.

I met another guy out at my friend's field who thought very poorly of my Kel-Tec PLR-16. So poorly that he didn't even want to see it. Of course my Glock 17 also sucked according to him. Apparently, I needed an H&K chambered in .45ACP, at least .40S&W, I mean, we all know the 9mm can't even break the skin. So I was like, "Ok, we'll just shoot your guns then."

He actually stated that I should not be trusting my life to that Glock or Kel-Tec and that he sure as hell wouldn't. He claimed that all Glocks are unreliable (?!??!!).

Well, he had an Armalite AR-10 (You know, a $1300 gun with a ridiculously expensive scope) and an AK-47 bullpup rifle. So we shoot those for a while. The AK jammed about 7 times through the course of one magazine and continued to jam with subsequent magazines. The AR-10 jammed every other round. He switched ammunition and magazines repeatedly and it continued to jam. He was using Hornady TAP or FPD ammunition.

Oh, that's another thing, he kept telling me that anything other than Hornady TAP was complete garbage.

Yet when it came down to it, every single gun he brought jammed more than anything I've ever used. I would NEVER trust my life to either of the guns he had. On the other hand, my Glock and Kel-Tec have never, ever jammed or failed to feed, fire or eject. Not once, for any reason.

I can't stand sh*t talkers who "only own the best," especially when they prove that everything they've got is garbage.

Kel-Tec's are great deals. You get reliable weapons that will function when needed. The PF-9 offers massive firepower compared to almost any other firearm that size. It can use +P ammunition in limited quantity as well. No, it's not a fun gun to shoot, and it wouldn't be expected to last through 20,000 rounds of performance loads like a Glock, but it's not built for that.


I would prefer a Glock 26 if I could only get one, but I would most likely carry it on my belt. It's a bit too thick for pocket carry unless your pants are really baggy. The Kel-Tec PF-9 is best for pocket carry IMO. You could also buy two PF-9's for the price of one G26. Honestly, get one or two of each, lol.
 
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