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Thread: Cleared Leather

  1. #1
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I wasn’t sure if I should post this but after talking to Animal Control I feel better about how I reacted.

    Thursday 1 May:
    I headed out on my bicycle with my P239 in a leather holster with a thumb-snap. I was cutting through a small park near my house. There were some kids and parents near the jungle-gym and other people spread out around the park. As I was pedaling towards the back of the park a large Collie suddenly jumped up and ran across the grass towards me. It got up behind my bike and tried to bite my right leg and I steered left away from it. Then it came around behind the bike and bit me on my left leg just below my knee. Somehow I managed to unclip my feet from the pedals and stopped, drew, and aimed at the dog. I yelled at the woman who was calling the dog that her dog was going to get shot, as it was ignoring her calls. The dog then just lay down on the grass and I re-holstered. I was shaking for a while

    The woman who owned the dog came running up and at first seemed nonchalant about the whole thing until she heard me yelling that her @!!%$# dog had bitten me. I cannot remember the last time I’ve even raised my voice to anyone but I was yelling at her. She saw my leg bleeding and she was about in tears because she couldn’t believe her dog had done that. In hindsight, the dog is a herding breed, and that’s what it was doing, herding me. As soon as I stopped it laid down. I calmed down and spoke to the woman. She was very apologetic so I headed home to treat the bite. When I got home I heard the tail end of a call on the scanner about a man on a bike with a gun, but missed most of the call.

    I slathered some Neosporin on it and headed back out to finish my ride. I decided to go back to the park to get the woman’s name and see if the police were there. They weren’t. I got the woman’s name and during the conversation I mentioned that someone had called the police. She said she hadn’t. When I returned to the park I heard a kid ask his mom, “Is that the guy?” I think it was one of the parents who called the police, but I’m not sure if it was because they saw the gun as I was leaving or because they saw me draw the gun. Anyway, I rode down along Ruston and home without any police so I guess I’ll never know. The weird part is that the dog’s owner had no idea I was even carrying a gun. She never saw my pull it and aim it at her dog and she never noticed it on my belt while we spoke until the end of the conversation.

    Day of:



    24 hours later:


    Sunday 3 May:
    I was riding along Ruston and I spotted an Animal Control Officer, I didn’t get her name. She was very friendly and helpful, and didn’t seem to mind talking to me with the P239 on my belt. I told her what had happened and she said I should always file a report. She said they would not have put the dog down (my worry) and that they would only quarantine it for a while to make sure it was healthy. They would also have written the owner a $250 ticket for her dogs being off leash. I mentioned that I was prepared to shoot the dog if it had come back and she felt it would have been justified.

    I may have to look at ways to carry pepper-spray while riding my bike. I don’t have pockets to work with so I still have to figure out some way of carrying it and having it ready. A few years back I was riding in Gig Harbor and a large German Sheppard with a burr stuck up its ass came off its owner’s porch, across the road, and was charging hard up behind me. Since it was still cool out I was wearing a light jacket and the spray was in the pocket. When the dog was about two feet from the rear tire I turned in my seat and sprayed it square in the face. The dog stopped. It stopped running and it stopped barking/snarling. Like it hit a wall it stopped. I’ve been an advocate of pepper spray ever since.

  2. #2
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    I think you handled that very well. I would have had trouble shooting a dog, as a dog owner myself. I know how attached people are to their dogs, and if my dog is off of her leash, she likes to run up to people to get attention. The problem is that not everybody thinks that her running up to them is as non-threatening as she does, so she doesn't get to walk from the house to the car off-leash anymore.

    The hard thing is that to the dog owner, the dog is harmless and just wants to say hello to everybody, but the other person has no way of knowing that, and in some cases the other person may even have a phobia of dogs that makes anything the dog does a "vicious charge toward them". I would be heartbroken if someone shot my dog, so she stays on a leash now. I would have a very hard time shooting someone else's dog, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't.

    Anyway, I think you did a good job, and I'm sure showing that extra second of restraint meant the world to that dog's owner.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    I may have to look at ways to carry pepper-spray while riding my bike. I don’t have pockets to work with so I still have to figure out some way of carrying it and having it ready.
    How about something like this?

    http://defensedevices.com/bike-mount...per-spray.html

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    2 years ago (5-3-06) I was clearing brush in my backyard when I was attacked by 2 Pit Bulls. Basically the same scenario as yours. I can furnish documentation by PM if you are interested.

    Any way, check out RCW 16.08

    I told the owner that if the dogs attacked again, I would kill them. I made the same statement to the local PD and Animal Control. their answer was...That would be justified and is completely legal under those circumstances.



  5. #5
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    I may have to look at ways to carry pepper-spray while riding my bike. I don’t have pockets to work with so I still have to figure out some way of carrying it and having it ready.
    How about something like this?

    http://defensedevices.com/bike-mount...per-spray.html


    Ordered! Thanks!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    2 years ago (5-3-06) I was clearing brush in my backyard when I was attacked by 2 Pit Bulls. Basically the same scenario as yours. I can furnish documentation by PM if you are interested.

    Any way, check out RCW 16.08

    I told the owner that if the dogs attacked again, I would kill them. I made the same statement to the local PD and Animal Control. their answer was...That would be justified and is completely legal under those circumstances.

    Wow! Two pit bulls would be very scary. If it were one pit bull charging me on the bike I probably would have fired immediately. I hate to admit it but I’m afraid of those and I’ve read some very gruesome stories about what they can do.

    As I was biking along the waterfront yesterday I saw a lot of pit bulls, and some pretty big ones too. I think it’s a fashion statement or something. They all seemed very docile though, but it’s impossible to predict what can set any dog off. The collie that bit me was a big dumb family dog; it probably had never bitten anyone. It saw my legs going up and down and that triggered some instinct to herd me. But, like I told the owner, what if it had been a small child riding a bike?



    Glad you kept your head and were able to come out on top of that situation.

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    Regular Member Sharpender's Avatar
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    I agree. I think you showed an enormous amount of restraint. I had planned to start a new thread today regarding a similar subject.

    I have a neighbor who owns several pit-bulls. The neighbor happens to be a real toilet bug. Her dogs get out and terrorize the neighborhoodoften. Myself or another neighbor calls the police/animal control on a fairly regular basis...at least once a month. She also is in a domestic abuse situation with her live in boyfriend...she does the whole pounding on our door at 2am asking us to call 911. The police will not come if she calls 911 because she does this on a regular basis. She calls 911 for things like her boyfriend slashing her tires or breaking windows. The police have just finally gotten sick of her...which I understand, if you lived here you would too so please don't judge the TPD too harshly. Thankfully her boyfriend will be in jail for a while...he enjoys robbing and raping women apparently.

    Anyway...two of her pits got out yesterday while my nine year old daughter was riding her bike. I was in the garage cleaning my 10/22 and I heard my daughter yell that the dogs were out. At this point I hear the dogs start barking, I look up and see the pits running towards my daughter. My dogs were in our fenced yard barking and distracted the pits from continuing on to my daughter. I start running towards my daughter, reach down to my strong side for my 9...but it's not there. I had left it upstairs...an obviously huge mistake. I reach my daughter and get her inside our yard and yell to my wife to get me my gun. At this point the pits are trying to get under the fence and people are coming out of their houses because of all the barking and yelling. My wife finally gets me my gun. I click the safety off, chamber a round and point it at pit #1's head, I'm about 3 feet from the fence, and my plan is to put two in the dogs head if he gets his head under the fence. At this point the hag owner starts screaming at her dogs to come to her..which they ignore, she screams at them again and her dogs stop trying to get under the fence...and start atacking each other. The dogs finally stop and run home.

    At this point I am pissed beyond words! She lives two houses down from mine and I scream at her to keep her dogs locked up. She yells back that someone must have left her gate open. I scream back saying "no one gives a sh!t about your gate, tie your f'ing dogs up. To which she replies "f you!"

    My wife calls the TPD and is told to call animal control, animal control tells her she should file a report.

    TPD,animal control, and Tacoma code enforcement officers have been out to her house so many times it is unbelievable.

    Basically I have been told that someone needs to be attacked by her dogs before anything can be done about it. My daughter cannot even go outside to ride her bike because of this BS, and no one cares.

    I'm at the end of my rope here and I don't know what to do. Maybe the courts can help...there has to be something I can do to stop the situation before my daughter is killed. Are my daughters rights being violated? I feel sorry for the scumbag ladiespits because I know she abuses them. She had two of her pits get into a fight last year and one was killed by the other. I'd hate to shoot the dogs, but I would have no problem doing it.

    If she refuses to control her animals than someone else has to before something horrible happens. My daughter is the only reason I live, if she is taken from me then all bets are off and I will become a felon....hypothetically speaking of course.

    I didn't sleep at all last night...I just kept thinking about my daughter being attacked over and over again.

    Any advise from you guys would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Sharpender
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

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    Check out RCW 16.08. There are ways to handle this and they are spelled out in 16.08.

    I have received 4 PM's about my encounter, so here is the statement I provided authorities:

    6:15 PM 3 May, 2006

    While working in my back yard, in the process of cleaning up the property, by removing brush and thorns, I was attacked by two pit bull dogs. The dogs are the property of the neighbors "Paul" and "Jade" and I think the last name isXXXX. The female dog, red and white was the first to attack, and while I was fending her off with my hedge clippers, she was joined by the black and white dog.

    The red and White dog was able to bite my right hand, making contact with the thumb. I was wearing heavy welding gloves which gave me some protection from the thorns. The bite did not break the skin or draw blood because of the protecting gloves. I was in a great amount of fear, and called to my wife to "GET MY GUN". I called for this several times. The owner ( Jade) ran over and started hitting the dogs causing them to run back to their property. She asked if I had been bitten, and I replied Yes. I then told her that I did not want to be a bad neighbor, but if the dogs attacked me again, I would shoot them.

    I had been working in the back yard all day and was continually aware of the dogs presence due to their loud, angry barking. The dogs were contained in separate "Travel type" enclosures, and I believe they attacked when they were released by the owner to be put on a leash. I do not know this for fact but am speculating.

    I contacted Animal control and made a telephone complaint. While on the phone with animal control, I walked to the back yard and read the license number of the neighbor vehicle so animal control could get a last name from the registration.

    About 10:30 AM,4 May 2006, I was contacted in person by Animal Control Officers, and related the above information a second time. I was given a Bite complaint, which I filled out and hand carried to the Humane Society building on Dickey Road.

    Upon returning Home about 2:00 PM 4 May 2006, I found a note attached to my back door stating:

    "Do not use my easemeent or come on my property or I will file for criminal trespassing. Animal Control came by, and I will let them know that you are harassing me saying your going to shoot my dogs. So thanx for calling animal control.

    OH YA, YOU ARE A BAD XXAXSXX person to have to live next to. Clean your ugly mess"

    It should be noted that I have used that driveway (he refers to as his easement) for access to the back of my property in excess of 19 years, I believe this grants me an Easement by Prescription

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    End of story, "I" am the bad neighbor and nothing has changed.

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    WOW! Glad it ended well.

    Have you consdered the kimber guardian angel for a pepper spray device? It has a belt clip and about the same profile as a cell phone...

  10. #10
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    medlogic wrote:
    My wife calls the TPD and is told to call animal control, animal control tells her she should file a report.

    TPD,animal control, and Tacoma code enforcement officers have been out to her house so many times it is unbelievable.
    The Animal Control Officer I spoke to gave me this number: 253.627.7387 It’s programmed in my cell phone.


    She told me they can issue the $250 ticket on your testimony, IOW, they don’t have to witness the dog off leash. If that woman gets a couple of those she may consider tying them up.


    If I were you I’d think about getting some pepper spray. Fox Labs makes one that's super hot and comes with green dye to mark the vicious little $hit’s face.

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    Regular Member Sharpender's Avatar
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    Thanks Mainsail, I'll check it out. Love the green dye feature!
    Sharpender
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

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    Mainsail wrote:
    medlogic wrote:
    My wife calls the TPD and is told to call animal control, animal control tells her she should file a report.

    TPD,animal control, and Tacoma code enforcement officers have been out to her house so many times it is unbelievable.
    The Animal Control Officer I spoke to gave me this number: 253.627.7387 It’s programmed in my cell phone.


    She told me they can issue the $250 ticket on your testimony, IOW, they don’t have to witness the dog off leash. If that woman gets a couple of those she may consider tying them up.


    If I were you I’d think about getting some pepper spray. Fox Labs makes one that's super hot and comes with green dye to mark the vicious little $hit’s face.
    I would insist that they charge people with the State RCW instead of a municipal code. It is much harsher and requires a mandatory court appearance.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Mainsail, I'm glad to hear you're, overall considering circumstances, okay. You certainly showed great restraint and good situational awareness in evaluating the dynamic situation: attack started, you drew weapon, attack was halted, you holstered.

    The above could have been a human or a dog; either way we need to constantly and dynamically evaluate the situation and the level of force we apply. I think you did so outstandingly.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Good job handling that encounter, Mainsail. I think you showed a lot of restraint in not shooting that dog if it was still presenting a threat after it bit you.

    Your write-up got me interested in how others would respond to the situation, namely whether or not most people would have called the police (this is not a criticism, everyone has their own way of handling the situation). Personally, I think I would call the police if I had to draw my firearm, especially in a park with lots of people around. I think by calling first, you are insuring that you are viewed as the victim instead of an agressor.

    What would others do?

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    As a younger man, I used to run the rural neighborhoods of Panama City, FL. Here, every other house was a trailer (including my own) and most of them had dogs on log chains in training for something illicit (I presume...). Anyway, one day a particularly ferocious speciman charged me and the log chain gave way... In the time it took him to cover 600yds (yea yards), his owner was running out with a Remington 1187, and I was forced to draw and shoot the dog with a .45 Long Colt Derringer, but not before he got teeth in my weak hand... I felt like hell that it came to that, but I've got to believe the dog was "damaged" and his owner's response solidified this belief... It didn't change the fact that it happened and didn't need to...

    I'm glad your experience ended better!

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    sean-1286 wrote:
    I think you showed a lot of restraint in not shooting that dog if it was still presenting a threat after it bit you.

    Your write-up got me interested in how others would respond to the situation, namely whether or not most people would have called the police (this is not a criticism, everyone has their own way of handling the situation).
    Like I said, the threat ended as soon as I stopped the bike; the dog trotted off to lay down. If it had turned back to charge me again, well, I guess I’d be that mean SOB that shot the beautiful dog in the park and traumatized several children. The next time a dog does the same thing, I won’t be waiting for the bite; it’ll get a snout full of pepper spray.



    A lot of why I didn’t immediately call the police has to do with the little faith I have in the TPD. I know there are some very hard working officers in the department but there are a few that shouldn't wear a badge too. I also know I’m not one of their favorite people. Looking at it in hindsight, I should have called and if there is a next time I will.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP Looking at it in hindsight, I should have called and if there is a next time I will.
    Great restraint. I, too, would have a hard time shooting someone's dog.

    The current general doctrine, as I understand it, is to call the police yourself anytime you draw your weapon or display it in a defensive situation. So I agree that it is a good idea to call the police if there is a next time. I might not have equated drawing on a dog with the need to pre-empt a mugger getting in a false report to the police. But I guess the same thing would apply to an upset dog owner, or an anti-gunner in the park with their kids.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    But I guess the same thing would apply to an upset dog owner, or an anti-gunner in the park with their kids.
    That's what I was thinking.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP Looking at it in hindsight, I should have called and if there is a next time I will.
    Great restraint. I, too, would have a hard time shooting someone's dog.

    The current general doctrine, as I understand it, is to call the police yourself anytime you draw your weapon or display it in a defensive situation. So I agree that it is a good idea to call the police if there is a next time. I might not have equated drawing on a dog with the need to pre-empt a mugger getting in a false report to the police. But I guess the same thing would apply to an upset dog owner, or an anti-gunner in the park with their kids.
    As I read the posts on this boardfrom time to time about shooting dogs I realize that there are many peoplethatare much more willing to kill a human than a dog. For whatever reasons someonehas for feeling this way it really doesn't matter to me but when I was about 8 I walked up tothe back door of myhouse and the neighbor's dog was lying beside it. As I reached to open the screen door the dog started barking and I realized that the door was latched. The dog soon started gnawing on the back ofmy leg doingquitea bit of damage. That dog had never bitten anyone before and I don't know that he did afterbut if ever another dog starts gnawing on my leg or my child I will not hesitate to kill it if I am able.

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    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP but if ever another dog starts gnawing on my leg or my child I will not hesitate to kill it if I am able.
    Gnawing on my leg would get it shot. I'm as much concerned about the child's trauma at seeing their dog killed as I am about my own skin.

    My tactics call forescalation,including loudly commanding the dog to cease, aggressive posture, and kicking. Mostwill back offbefore needing to resortto pepper spray or gunfire.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    By the way, Mainsail.

    That bite looks exactly what I would imagine as a "herding" bite. A nip at the back of the leg. It looks like she got you with the little front teeth.

    I suspect she took those furry legs to be sheep legs. She was probably surprised you didn't bleat.

    I'm kinda guessing that she realized she'd done wrong and decided to lay down (lay low). When they've done well and are proud, they tend to prance and trot around. Pat themselves on the back and feel proud, as it were.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP but if ever another dog starts gnawing on my leg or my child I will not hesitate to kill it if I am able.
    Gnawing on my leg would get it shot. I'm as much concerned about the child's trauma at seeing their dog killed as I am about my own skin.

    My tactics call forescalation,including loudly commanding the dog to cease, aggressive posture, and kicking. Mostwill back offbefore needing to resortto pepper spray or gunfire.

    A lot of dogs will turn tail and run if you pick up or pretend to pick up a rock and threaten to throw it. Worked like a charm about 80 to 90 percent of the time I needed to, even from a pretty good distance... If nothing else it buys you a little more time to assess the situation.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    jaredbelch wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP but if ever another dog starts gnawing on my leg or my child I will not hesitate to kill it if I am able.
    Gnawing on my leg would get it shot. I'm as much concerned about the child's trauma at seeing their dog killed as I am about my own skin.

    My tactics call forescalation,including loudly commanding the dog to cease, aggressive posture, and kicking. Mostwill back offbefore needing to resortto pepper spray or gunfire.

    A lot of dogs will turn tail and run if you pick up or pretend to pick up a rock and threaten to throw it. Worked like a charm about 80 to 90 percent of the time I needed to, even from a pretty good distance... If nothing else it buys you a little more time to assess the situation.

    Well, in my situation (on the bike) it wouldn’t have been practical, or even necessary. There was a whole park full of tender tasty children on the dog’s menu, but he expressed little interest. It was the up and down movement of my legs and my ground speed that piqued his curiosity.



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    Mainsail wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP but if ever another dog starts gnawing on my leg or my child I will not hesitate to kill it if I am able.
    Gnawing on my leg would get it shot. I'm as much concerned about the child's trauma at seeing their dog killed as I am about my own skin.

    My tactics call forescalation,including loudly commanding the dog to cease, aggressive posture, and kicking. Mostwill back offbefore needing to resortto pepper spray or gunfire.

    A lot of dogs will turn tail and run if you pick up or pretend to pick up a rock and threaten to throw it. Worked like a charm about 80 to 90 percent of the time I needed to, even from a pretty good distance... If nothing else it buys you a little more time to assess the situation.

    Well, in my situation (on the bike) it wouldn’t have been practical, or even necessary. There was a whole park full of tender tasty children on the dog’s menu, but he expressed little interest. It was the up and down movement of my legs and my ground speed that piqued his curiosity.

    I was a bit off topic huh? Well I think you handled it well, and I hope nothing gets infected!

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP but if ever another dog starts gnawing on my leg or my child I will not hesitate to kill it if I am able.
    Gnawing on my leg would get it shot. I'm as much concerned about the child's trauma at seeing their dog killed as I am about my own skin.

    My tactics call forescalation,including loudly commanding the dog to cease, aggressive posture, and kicking. Mostwill back offbefore needing to resortto pepper spray or gunfire.

    A lot of dogs will turn tail and run if you pick up or pretend to pick up a rock and threaten to throw it. Worked like a charm about 80 to 90 percent of the time I needed to, even from a pretty good distance... If nothing else it buys you a little more time to assess the situation.

    Agreed. Dogs communicate through body language, and they have an expectation that when they present their dominant body language, you will present submissive body language. Most dogs will think twice about attacking someone with dominant body language. Picking up a rock and showing confident body language worries the dog, because it can see that you aren't afraid of it, like it thinks you should be.

    I was once walking in a rural neighborhood, down a gravel road surrounded by trees, when two wild dogs (not wolves, just domestic mix breeds that were probably a generation or twostray) started down the same gravel road. They saw me and my friend walking, and started trotting quickly toward us from about 50 yards away. The hair on their backs stood up and they started to growl and bark as they picked up the pace. I moved more quickly toward my friend's pickup, which was parked about 25 yards ahead of us. We got close to the pickup, but the dogs were closing the distance, at about 20 yards, and I thought that this was more than enough. I stopped, flipped back my jacket, and drew my Sig P226 9mm. I pointed it at the lead dog and my finger went to the trigger. The dog immediately disengaged, and started running parallel to us instead of right at us. He turned around and trotted off. Seeing that the dog presented no more threat, I holstered my gun and called animal control.

    I didn't want to fire, because it was 6:00am on a Sunday in this neighborhood and I didn't want to wake everyone up. In retrospect, I kind of wishI had, because animal control was closed and the sheriff's department wouldn't do anything, so for all I know these dogs are still out there terrorizing this neighborhood.

    Anyway, the point of my story is that the dog sensed the change in my body language, when I went from submissive behavior (trying to escape), to dominant behavior (holding my ground). He could see that the worry immediately left my face. I doubt that the dog recognized what was in my hand for what it was, but he did recognize that whatever it was made me instantly not afraid of him. To the dog, this had to be as scary as if he knew what a handgun was and knew he was staring down the barrel of it.

    It is important to display dominant body language to a dog, or they will take the dominant role.


    (edit: spelling)

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