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Thread: Good news from Oly

  1. #1
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    I have learned that all OPD officers have been given formal training on the legalities of OC, not just the training directive. (YES, I'm requesting the training material!) There may also be an opinion coming down from the City Attorney's Office regarding if malls and other private property that is considered a "public place" can bar people from OCing in public areas. As I get documents, I will share them. I spend a few hours as a guest of OPD in a couple of their cars (FRONT SEAT thank you very much ) and not only had a great time, but got to have some positive interactions with various officers.



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    Bravo!

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Great job...

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Neat!!! Can't wait to see the actual documents they used for training.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I spend a few hours as a guest of OPD in a couple of their cars (FRONT SEAT thank you very much ) and not only had a great time, but got to have some positive interactions with various officers.
    Were you carrying?

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    Awesome Job. Perhaps we may even get some of them out to a lunch some day!

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    wqbang wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I spend a few hours as a guest of OPD in a couple of their cars (FRONT SEAT thank you very much ) and not only had a great time, but got to have some positive interactions with various officers.
    Were you carrying?
    No. I was told by Lt. Wilson (he is now a watch commander) that I could not wear my gun as part of the ride along. I asked if I could simply store it at the station, and he didn't say no, but he didnt' encourage it either. I have since learned there are no public lockboxes at OPD and the weapon would have to be stored with an individual for the time, and my guess is they did not want the headache. I didn't press the issue too much as I was trying to be friendly.

    The training involved going over the OPD training directive we have all seen. I guess all have been formally trained on the issue using that document.





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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    wqbang wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I spend a few hours as a guest of OPD in a couple of their cars (FRONT SEAT thank you very much ) and not only had a great time, but got to have some positive interactions with various officers.
    Were you carrying?
    No. I was told by Lt. Wilson (he is now a watch commander) that I could not wear my gun as part of the ride along. I asked if I could simply store it at the station, and he didn't say no, but he didnt' encourage it either. I have since learned there are no public lockboxes at OPD and the weapon would have to be stored with an individual for the time, and my guess is they did not want the headache. I didn't press the issue too much as I was trying to be friendly.

    The training involved going over the OPD training directive we have all seen. I guess all have been formally trained on the issue using that document.



    Aren't they suppose to have lock boxes for when private citizens show up and need to store a weapon before they enter the jail area? I thought that was state law, even.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Aren't they suppose to have lock boxes for when private citizens show up and need to store a weapon before they enter the jail area? I thought that was state law, even.
    Indeed it is; RCW 9.41.300.

    If they have an area restricted to firearms by that law, they are required to provide a lockbox OR designated person to secure the firearm. So, having someone take charge of it is acceptable. They are liable for any loss or damage to the firearm while in their care, so make sure to bring a camera and take pictures of your firearm just before handing it over.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    just_a_car wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Aren't they suppose to have lock boxes for when private citizens show up and need to store a weapon before they enter the jail area? I thought that was state law, even.
    Indeed it is; RCW 9.41.300.

    If they have an area restricted to firearms by that law, they are required to provide a lockbox OR designated person to secure the firearm. So, having someone take charge of it is acceptable. They are liable for any loss or damage to the firearm while in their care, so make sure to bring a camera and take pictures of your firearm just before handing it over.
    sv_libertarianis not saying they wouldn't have a designated person secure it for him, he is merely saying that he didn't think anyone would want the headache. If one had business there and didn't have the ability to store a gun elsewhere I'm sure that the necessary accomodations for the gun would be made. It's done for officers booking prisoners all the time, it's just a little more hassle for the front counter customer.

    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    amlevin wrote:
    just_a_car wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Aren't they suppose to have lock boxes for when private citizens show up and need to store a weapon before they enter the jail area? I thought that was state law, even.
    Indeed it is; RCW 9.41.300.

    If they have an area restricted to firearms by that law, they are required to provide a lockbox OR designated person to secure the firearm. So, having someone take charge of it is acceptable. They are liable for any loss or damage to the firearm while in their care, so make sure to bring a camera and take pictures of your firearm just before handing it over.
    sv_libertarianis not saying they wouldn't have a designated person secure it for him, he is merely saying that he didn't think anyone would want the headache. If one had business there and didn't have the ability to store a gun elsewhere I'm sure that the necessary accomodations for the gun would be made. It's done for officers booking prisoners all the time, it's just a little more hassle for the front counter customer.
    That's not what the law says. It says they must have one or the other and the head ache part doesn't matter.

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    just_a_car,

    I'm not so sure about that; if you look closely at RCW 9.41.300 (1), you'll see that the part about providing storage facilities is part of (b) and does not explicitly reference any other section, so a case could be made that the requirement only applies to court facilities as mentioned in (b), and not LE (a) or mental health facilities (c).

    And I've certainly never heard anyone claim that bars (d) or airports (e) are required to provide storage facilities, either, but it's hard to imagine a reading that would apply the requirement to (a) and (c) but not (d) or (e). (Not that it wouldn't be nice...)

    And Bear, what part of "Steve was doing this as a matter of politeness, not a legal requirement" don't you understand?



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    Yargh, let me settle my motive once and for all without dragging people into what I did.

    I have the emails if anyone wants to see them, but I was specifically told I couldn't have my gun with me as part of the ride along.

    I then asked if I could store it somewhere as I had business to attend to before and after the ride along. Lt. Wilson did not come right out and say I couldn't bring my gun and check it in, but indicated that he would appreciate it if I didn't. He didn't prohibit it, but he didn't come out and say "ok" either.

    I'm perfectly aware of the laws and my rights in this fashion, but I decided to play along with Lt. Wilson's requests. After the ride, I could have gotten dropped off at home, got my gun and walked back downtown, but I opted to get dropped off downtown for my convience....

    However I do plan to address the issue of lack of storage at OPD. They have jail lockboxes, but those are for the officers. I had to check my gun with OPD one time, and they just had an officer maintain control over it while I was in there.

    My guess is I could have forced the issue and compelled them to check my weapon, or most likely from the tone of the officers I was with, I don't think they would have personally cared one way or another if I was packing, but again I didn't push the issue.

    Yes I was inconvienced, but at the same time, I prefer to work things a little more diplomatically. I know OPD reads this forum, and my posts and I trust they have an idea of the laws, and my annoynance with being requested not to bring my gun.

    There has been a lot of back and forth between them and me, very little of it positive for the higher ups at OPD. The officers I met were very nice people, one of them I know socially already. Personally I have no desire to make problems with OPD, but I do wish (and have done so) to make it very plain that while I am not anti LEO I do wish my rights respected. I chose not to bring my gun and have it checked even though I coud have simply shown up with it, and said "Oh I know you said I couldn't have it on the ride, but I figured per RCW blah blah blah you would put it in a lockbox for me. What? No lockboxes? Well have Officer so and so sign a recipt and keep it in his posession for the next 2-4 hours."

    Not interested in playing that game. A polite letter to Chief Michel, or maybe someone in the City Manager's office will probably get lockboxes a lot faster than me making myself annoying.

    At any rate, the key thing is that I chose what course of action to take. Given the sucess in getting OC training done in Olympia, and the possibility of a county attorney's opinion on if the mall can bar legally carried weapons in public places... I'll make nice.

    Oly already has one rabid anti cop crusader, by conducting myself diplomatically and making minor temporary concessions here and there, a lot has been gained.

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    kparker wrote:
    just_a_car,

    I'm not so sure about that; if you look closely at RCW 9.41.300 (1), you'll see that the part about providing storage facilities is part of (b) and does not explicitly reference any other section, so a case could be made that the requirement only applies to court facilities as mentioned in (b), and not LE (a) or mental health facilities (c).

    And I've certainly never heard anyone claim that bars (d) or airports (e) are required to provide storage facilities, either, but it's hard to imagine a reading that would apply the requirement to (a) and (c) but not (d) or (e). (Not that it wouldn't be nice...)

    And Bear, what part of "Steve was doing this as a matter of politeness, not a legal requirement" don't you understand?

    What part of required by state law don't you understand?

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Yes I was inconvienced, but at the same time, I prefer to work things a little more diplomatically.*

    (snip)

    by conducting myself diplomatically and making minor temporary concessions here and there, a lot has been gained.*

    DING!DING!DING!


    Which is why one of my life sayings is.. "Diplomat first, soldier second".. Try to get things done nicely first, but if that doesn't work, THEN kick ass.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    kparker wrote:
    just_a_car,

    I'm not so sure about that; if you look closely at RCW 9.41.300 (1), you'll see that the part about providing storage facilities is part of (b) and does not explicitly reference any other section, so a case could be made that the requirement only applies to court facilities as mentioned in (b), and not LE (a) or mental health facilities (c).

    And I've certainly never heard anyone claim that bars (d) or airports (e) are required to provide storage facilities, either, but it's hard to imagine a reading that would apply the requirement to (a) and (c) but not
    Agreed, I knew it was under (b), but had assumed it applied to (a) also. As there isn't any wordage to indicate such, I can only assume that it only applies to court facilities. Hrm... that does make things interesting and would certainly be worth a question to the State AG on exactly what that applies to.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Guys, I know and OPD knows that state law requires them to store the firearm. While I'm not sure if the front seat of a cop car counts as "secure area" it comes close enough where I'll understand them telling me not to carry a gun in their car.

    I was not told I could NOT check a weapon at the police station, rather I was asked (not told, but asked) not to. I have learned they do not have public lockboxes at the station.

    Legally there is nothing under the sun that could prevent them from me walking into the building and saying "Hey, I'm here for my ride, please check my gun" They would have had to store the gun some way, some how under state law. Due to the lack of lock boxes a cop would have had to have personal control and responsibility of the weapon, and I don't think they wanted that. Hence the REQUEST from them. I honored the request, with everyone knowing full well the laws of this state.

    Can everyone here please argue about something else? I figured the fact that every officer has had formal training on OC now would be something we could all enjoy, not the infighting over my choice not to wear my gun that day....

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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    DING!DING!DING!


    Which is why one of my life sayings is.. "Diplomat first, soldier second".. Try to get things done nicely first, but if that doesn't work, THEN kick ass.
    Bingo! And that my friends is why OPD hasn't had their butts sued off, and why things have gotten as far as they have. I have a respect for OPD, and they have come around to respecting what I do. Life is good. Next project. There are too many bad elements in this town, and I do not need to make enemies of the cops, nor given the way things are right now, does the City need one more fight on it's hands. This place is a powder keg ready to blow as it is with the hippies and rock throwing anarchists.


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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Guys, I know and OPD knows that state law requires them to store the firearm. While I'm not sure if the front seat of a cop car counts as "secure area" it comes close enough where I'll understand them telling me not to carry a gun in their car.

    I was not told I could NOT check a weapon at the police station, rather I was asked (not told, but asked) not to. I have learned they do not have public lockboxes at the station.

    Legally there is nothing under the sun that could prevent them from me walking into the building and saying "Hey, I'm here for my ride, please check my gun" They would have had to store the gun some way, some how under state law. Due to the lack of lock boxes a cop would have had to have personal control and responsibility of the weapon, and I don't think they wanted that. Hence the REQUEST from them. I honored the request, with everyone knowing full well the laws of this state.

    Can everyone here please argue about something else? I figured the fact that every officer has had formal training on OC now would be something we could all enjoy, not the infighting over my choice not to wear my gun that day....
    I don't have a problem with what you did Steve. I do however have a problem with any LE Agency not complying with state law when they are enforcing the law. They lack of following the law makes them hypocrites.

  20. #20
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    Oh I'll bet dollars to donuts they would have checked my gun, but given the nature of communication I already had with them, it would not have set a good tone for the day.

    I'll use this as an example for why the city needs to fund some lockboxes. Makes for a much better letter to the mayor or manager than if I had forced the issue...

  21. #21
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Guys, I know and OPD knows that state law requires them to store the firearm. While I'm not sure if the front seat of a cop car counts as "secure area" it comes close enough where I'll understand them telling me not to carry a gun in their car.

    I was not told I could NOT check a weapon at the police station, rather I was asked (not told, but asked) not to. I have learned they do not have public lockboxes at the station.

    Legally there is nothing under the sun that could prevent them from me walking into the building and saying "Hey, I'm here for my ride, please check my gun" They would have had to store the gun some way, some how under state law. Due to the lack of lock boxes a cop would have had to have personal control and responsibility of the weapon, and I don't think they wanted that. Hence the REQUEST from them. I honored the request, with everyone knowing full well the laws of this state.

    Can everyone here please argue about something else? I figured the fact that every officer has had formal training on OC now would be something we could all enjoy, not the infighting over my choice not to wear my gun that day....
    No worries Steve, I'm not arguing about it. I did think that it did cover them, but rereading it, it may not. It's brought up a really good point that they may not actually be required to comply with the lockbox rule. Like I said, it would be worth asking the State AG, Rob McKenna, if it applies to them or not.

    I think what you did was comendable and "right" and got a lot done for OC and citizen-LEO relationships/interactions. As you said (and was assumed just before we attended Old School Pizzaria), they read OCDO and, honestly, I'm glad they do. It's a great way for them to see that we, as citizens, care about our rights and are willing to learn the truth about the laws as opposed to just going out there doing as we please ignorant of whether we're obeying the law or not. Plus, it may actually inform some officers to parts of the law that they were not aware of, yet.

    Overall, an excellent post and one that's sprouted a couple tangents that are worth pursuing. Don't read too much into my part into it... my posts are almost like thinking outloud, sometimes.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Nice job!

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