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OHSU psychiatrist to highlight warning signs for school shootings

PT111

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deepdiver, I have three children and I could tell the differences in their personalities when they were only hours old. Nurure certainly plays a strong part but I have seen too many where it was nature that ruled in my opinion. I absolutely believe that some people are just born evil and no amount of nurture and good parenting is ever going to change them. I know that is not PC but I have seen it happen between brothers.
 

Citizen

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deepdiver wrote:
SNIP I think the only sure thing we can say is that both genetics and environment play a role in making a human being what s/he is, but the degree of each is heavily debated in many circles.
I'm only continuing the discussion because I consider the fields of psychology and psychiatry dangerous to rights, including gun rights.

Not questioning you, DeepDiver; just the doctrine itself and the people who teach this stuff to our youth.

Genetics and environment play a role? So, I guess people are really just animals? Maybe a little more sophisticated, maybe a little more complex, but still animals?

Does the debate not include what else might play a role? Whether that something else plays a stronger role? Of course not. If it did, they'd look like idiots for spending their time researching thelesser roles rather than the strongerones.

What is meant by "role" anyway? Its a deliciously vague word. Is it like "link," another vague word that oft repeated begins to mean "causes?"

Theseideas are dangerous. They're de-humanizing. If you're just so much chemistry, you don't really deserve any rights. No more than a rock or a plant. Rightsbecome just quaint ideas to keep all the "animals" happy. So,the problem becomes not protecting their rights, but how to keep them happy while you take their rights away.
 

Flintlock

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PT111 wrote:
deepdiver, I have three children and I could tell the differences in their personalities when they were only hours old. Nurure certainly plays a strong part but I have seen too many where it was nature that ruled in my opinion. I absolutely believe that some people are just born evil and no amount of nurture and good parenting is ever going to change them. I know that is not PC but I have seen it happen between brothers.

I can't say that I agree with that. I believe there is good in all people and saying thatbeing born with whatever issue is just an excuse for wrongdoing. Granted, there have been some issues where pregnant mothers smoked crack and drank, etc. during pregnancy and that caused some issues at birth, but how many murders or evil acts canwe attribute to this discussionthat are "caused" by those actions of the mother?

Now there have been studies and documentation that suggests that people with frontal lobe damage (the decision making side of the brain) are much more susceptible to commit wrongdoing than others and that childhood environment, broken up families, drugs,etc... all play a majorrole in upbringing. Kids that are injured, dropped, beat, etc. can receive this damage and lots of problems may occurr.

Butto say that people are just plain born to commit evil is a bit of a reach, IMO.
 

imperialism2024

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Citizen wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
SNIP I think the only sure thing we can say is that both genetics and environment play a role in making a human being what s/he is, but the degree of each is heavily debated in many circles.
I'm only continuing the discussion because I consider the fields of psychology and psychiatry dangerous to rights, including gun rights.

Not questioning you, DeepDiver; just the doctrine itself and the people who teach this stuff to our youth.

Genetics and environment play a role? So, I guess people are really just animals? Maybe a little more sophisticated, maybe a little more complex, but still animals?

Does the debate not include what else might play a role? Whether that something else plays a stronger role? Of course not. If it did, they'd look like idiots for spending their time researching thelesser roles rather than the strongerones.

What is meant by "role" anyway? Its a deliciously vague word. Is it like "link," another vague word that oft repeated begins to mean "causes?"

Theseideas are dangerous. They're de-humanizing. If you're just so much chemistry, you don't really deserve any rights. No more than a rock or a plant. Rightsbecome just quaint ideas to keep all the "animals" happy. So,the problem becomes not protecting their rights, but how to keep them happy while you take their rights away.
So, now, look at children who have been locked up in a room by themselves since birth, or children raised in the wild, and tell me that there isn't a huge environmental role in the development of people. Genetics provide the psychological processes that allow children to learn and develop, and introduce some predispositions into how that person will develop. The point is... people are who the world made them, and my heathen science proves this fairly well.
 

Citizen

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imperialism2024 wrote:
So, now, look at children who have been locked up in a room by themselves since birth, or children raised in the wild, and tell me that there isn't a huge environmental role in the development of people. Genetics provide the psychological processes that allow children to learn and develop, and introduce some predispositions into how that person will develop. The point is... people are who the world made them, and my heathen science proves this fairly well.

OK. Ground rules first. I'm not fighting with you. I'm fighting with the doctrines and the people who foist these doctrines on the rest of us in a perversion of the word science.

The more we accept these ideas uninspected, the riskier for rights. Lets do a little inspecting.

Lets look at the information that genetics provide the psychological processes that allow children to learn and develop. Since its been around for a while, I'll assume its not your original idea; thus I'm not trying to tread on your toes.

The physical universe has one particular characteristic that has a bearing on the matter: mechanical cause and effect. This includes forceor energy. And the physical universe lacks a particular characteristic that has a bearing on the matter: the ability tocreate.

This doesn't even particularly have to get into religion. Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. One need not consult their doctrines. One doesn't need to discuss God. All one need do is look around and consult experience. No faith required.

A rock rolls down a hill, bumps another rock, and the second rock starts to move. Or two billiard balls collide,and each heads in a new direction. Ask yourself.Have you ever seen a rock or billiard ball create a new direction of travel independent of mechanical causes? Have you every seen the physical universe make an original creation that couldn't be traced back to a mechanical cause? Its phenomena, as far as we can measure with certainty, always trace back to a mechanical cause. No original creation. A rolling rock or billiard ball never change their course unless there is a mechanical cause.

Yet people can create.They can create original art. They can decide to do all sorts of original things without first receivinga mechanical cause.

This is another way of saying people can be an original cause. The physical universe can't. There is always an earlier mechanical cause.People can be an original cause.

And an original cause is the antithesis of "who the world made them." "Who the world made them" essentially says that people are the effect of the world around them. Yet we have clear evidence that people can be an original cause. Every day. Every person (almost).

If people's thoughts and actions were just the products of their brain chemical reactions, all behaviorwould be predictable, foreordained by the chemical make-up.Yet people docreatewithout having received a mechanical cause--a stimulus.

Call it a divine spark, life essence, soul, whatever you want. Or don't call it anything.You and I need not know what it is, nor understand it. We only need to be able to see for ourselves whether our personal observations contradict the assertions of their so-called science.

Perhaps a little closer to home is the idea of personal responsibility. This is closely tied to original cause. In fact it is the same thing. Ifmy impulses,my thoughts are merely the product of my brain chemicals, then I am not an original cause. Therefore I am not responsible for my actions.Also, there would be no point in feeling guilty for having done wrong--I wasn't responsible. Only when I am the original cause am I responsible.

There is something about each person that is free of the physical universe. Free to create things for its fellows and itself. Free to be an original cause.

The assertion under color of science that thought is just a product of chemical reactions denies that freedom.What other basis for Freedom is there?
 

Tomahawk

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I sometimes wonder why no one can ever definitively say what's behind the whole mass-shooting/mass-murder thing with teenagers. Not all of these shooters die, some of them are caught before they commit the act, why not just ask them what they were thinking? I have my personal theory, of course, but I'll be the first to admit that my theory is based on my preconceptions of what's wrong with society today.

I'm with Citizen when it comes to treating people like laboratory subjects, but when you're dealing with large numbers of people in general situations, all your data is going to be statistical. For instance, without discussing any individuals, we can look at statistics and determine if there really is a problem in the first place, ie. is there anincrease per capita of mass murderers, or is this problem really just sensationalism coupled with the cowardly attitude of authorities adopted since 9/11?

If the answer is yes, or even if it isn't, what conditions would have to exist to make someone who's life sucks to decide to do such a thing? Somebody like Cho apparently had pronounced aggression problems before his crime, but is this true of all these people? Or are there multiple causes?

While I agree that some people are just evil, I also believe that if there is a per capita increase in such evil people in your population, then there is probably a cause and effect relationship in there somewhere.
 

Citizen

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imperialism2024 wrote:
Citizen, you bring up some interesting points, though I think the discussion has now moved beyond the scope of this thread.

Another time :)

Psychology and psychiatry are pretty murky subjects. We might range wide to nail down all the contradictions. But we'd still be tackling the nonsense that video games cause school shootings.

I was basically still running with ODA 226's prediction that theresearcher would not come up with the real cause, blaming video games instead.
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
SNIP I also believe that if there is a per capita increase in such evil people in your population, then there is probably a cause and effect relationship in there somewhere.

Here might be something. Its a google return page. I clicked on the first one:

http://tinyurl.com/52yy5q
 

PT111

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Cho was one of those that does not really fit the mold of either nurture or nature but a combination of both. His inborn personality conflicted with that of his parents and his desires of life was different that what he was forced to do. In a different environment he would probably have been fine but with those little inborn traits were multiplied as he grew older. Life is very complicated and I think that Cho demonstrates that one method of parenting does not fit all. Just take a look at Cho's sister. We have to remember that when we talk of these mass murderers we are talking such a small percentage of the general population that no statistics can be meaningful There are always exceptions and that is what they fall into.
 

deepdiver

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I think some things are being lumped together that are very different. Psychology, psychiatry and sociology are very different things and each have a different approach to human behavior. I'll simplify this for the sake of conversation and succinctness.

Psychology starts with the individual and then looks outward to the effect of the individual on other people and other people's effect on that individual, but always looking for the individual causative factors. Personal responsibility is inherent. Even social psychology looking at group behavior approaches the matter from what each individual brings to the group that effects group behavior.

Psychiatry is a medical perspective of psychological phenomena. In it's "pure" form it delves into the biochemical, physiological and neurochemical aspects of humans, also coming from the individual aspect outward.

Sociology starts with society and moves inward to the individual. By it's very name it is evident that it views with individual within the social construct and views individual outcomes as being socially/environmentally driven. It is most always looking at how the group/society effects the individual rather than what influences the individual brings to the group.

The confusion arises because there has developed a great overlap between these areas of study, especially in pop culture. It is not that psychology and psychiatry have crept into sociology, but that sociology has crept into each of them. In the subject study even, it appears, at least on the surface, to be a question of what social factors effected the individual behavior rather than asking what inherent quality in the individual made them suceptible to what social facts leading to the behavior.

I think it not a coincidence that as socialism has gained greater foothold in our society that sociology has become the greater funded, greater relied upon view of behavior, especially in our school systems. As the saying went when I was in the field when discussing the ascendence of sociology and the bastardizing of psychology into a sociological mindset, they simply have better unions than we do (which is actually true to a great extent but off topic even more).

Much of what has been said in this thread would be agreed with by a classical-study psychologist. Much of it would be argued against vehemently by typical sociologists.
 
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