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Thread: Interaction with Grand Rapids Police Department

  1. #1
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    Below is my email coresspondents with the GRPD regarding open-carry.

    One word....unbelievable. The first message is from GRPD. The message after it is the reply i made today.

    __________________________________________________ _______________



    Good Morning,

    In response to your question regarding “open-carrying of a handgun within city limits”, there is a city ordinance.

    It is found under the Firearms section of the City of Grand Rapids Ordinance - Sec. 9.173 – Carrying.

    It states: “No person all carry any firearm upon his or her person in any public street, alley or other place open to the public in the City of Grand Rapids unless”:

    (1)The person has been issued a valid license to do so as provided by Act 372 of Michigan Public Acts of 1927, as amended (MSA 28.91 et seq., MCL 28.421 et seq.), or (i.e. CPL permit)

    (2)All ammunition has been removed from the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine of the firearm and the firearm has been noticeably rendered inoperable by being broken down or disassembled or is completely enclosed within a case or other similar container. (i.e. disassembled or locked in a container)


    If you any further questions please feel free to email or contact me directly.


    Evie Torres
    616-456-3350





    Thank you for the reply

    Does this not mean that the city of Grand Rapids is in violation of the Firearm Preemption Law of Michigan.

    2-1990 MCL 123.1102 (PREEMPTION LAW) A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to,… ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms,... This law was upheld by the MI Supreme Court. (www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf )

    This clearly implies that a city cannot make rules pertaining to open-carry. Since it restricts local units of government from imposing any kind of ordinance relating to transportation and possession of pistols or other firearms. It's up the state and federal gov.

    Feedback is much appreciated.

    Thank you for your time and service.



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    I can't wait to see what they say back, but personally I would have sent that information in the first email.

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    An email recieved by a friend

    Mr. XXXXXXX

    Open carry is legal in Michigan, regardless of local ordinance. Put another way - local governments may not lawfully prevent open carry (except in state recognized pistol free zones). The only exception is where state law has allowed the state and local government to prohibit all firearms possession in certain areas. This would most often arise in game areas by way of agreement between the DNR and a local government. However, at this time we're not aware of any such restrictions being in place.

    Sincerely,

    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Evie Torres needs to study some law before giving out advice.

    So I say, GRPD can go suck an egg.

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    I try not to throw facts around in my initial email. I don't want to make the po po go "uh oh, its another gun nut" ....at least not right away. First I peek their interest, then BAM! Hit em with the law! lol.

    I am getting really inconsistant replies from local authorities. Wyoming said its the same as state law, so basically what state says or doesn't say goes. Grand Rapids seems to have some issues with it, and I'm still waiting on Grandville and Kentwood. And of course I was told its legal from state police.

    It sounds like no matter what if i open carry i'm bound to find trouble around here.



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    Evie Torres didn't say it was illegal in the city. She just said there is an ordinance.

    Scare tactic. Counting on you not knowing about state pre-emption.

    A good question would be whether they plan to enforce the illegal city ordinance. I wonder if it wouldn't be best to send the question directly to the prosecutor's office and the city attorney. The police will listen to their opinion. Officially, anyway.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Evie Torres didn't say it was illegal in the city. She just said there is an ordinance.

    Scare tactic. Counting on you not knowing about state pre-emption.

    A good question would be whether they plan to enforce the illegal city ordinance. I wonder if it wouldn't be best to send the question directly to the prosecutor's office and the city attorney. The police will listen to their opinion. Officially, anyway.
    I am going to get a hold of William A. Forsyth, the kent county prosecutor and forward him my conversation with the GRPD and get his opinion on the matter.

    I will give updates in this thread as I get the replies.

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    Hahaha! You guys won't (well probably will) believe this!

    Evelyn Torres replies back to me just now saying only


    "Your welcome!"



    Apparently she took "Feedback is much appreciated" as meaning I am thanking her for her initial feedback only, and require no further replies. lol oh gosh.

    I guess that's the end of that conversation. sheesh.



    Edit: btw, I am still getting a hold of the prosecuting attorney of kent county, and I did just send a reply to Evelyn asking:

    So....in contradiction of Michigan Firearm Preemption Law.....Grand Rapids Police Department will enforce this ordinance by arresting a person who has a loaded pistol that is openly carried and secured in a holster... in plain view? Is this correct or no?

    I ask to clear up any confusion on my part.

    Thanks again,
    Tim



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    The city of Ferndale was in violation of state law untill MCRGO took them to court. Grand Rapids and many other cities violate the state preemption law all the time with thier Pistol Purchase Permit application process, and some others with thier Safety Check process. This is one of those cases of police being willing to violate the laws they don't agree with.

    Edited to add:

    I noticed that she didn't give her title within the GRPD. Do you know what it is and if you were even corresponding with the correct person?

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    ghostrider wrote:
    The city of Ferndale was in violation of state law untill MCRGO took them to court. Grand Rapids and many other cities violate the state preemption law all the time with thier Pistol Purchase Permit application process, and some others with thier Safety Check process. This is one of those cases of police being willing to violate the laws they don't agree with.

    Edited to add:

    I noticed that she didn't give her title within the GRPD. Do you know what it is and if you were even corresponding with the correct person?
    She didn't give her title. I have had more dialogue with her since my last post on the thread, and you can tell she probably isn't the "right" person to be talking to. You will understand when I post the whole thing, some of it is actually pretty funny, she mistakes me for a person in their office name Tim. lol. She did pass my question on to someone who would better answer it. When I get the full answer to my question, I will post the entire email conversation.



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    Hey, Qodosh,

    Thanks for your educational efforts directed at the G.R.P.D. We just gotta keep 'em in their place. Thanks again.

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    Ford Truck wrote:
    Hey, Qodosh,

    Thanks for your educational efforts directed at the G.R.P.D. We just gotta keep 'em in their place. Thanks again.
    Your very welcome.



    I got word back from the GRPD saying that they are inquiring with local attorneys office. I was told they will get back to me when they get a response from the attorney.

    I will probably post a new thread with that information so as to make sure the information is visible enough.

    Just to clarify, the issue i brought up to them that they are trying to resolve was concerning michigan firearm preemption law and their city ordinance regarding the ban on open carry. Apparently the police in the station didn't know how to respond since they are bringing it to the attorneys.


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    I’m looking forward to hearing that response. I know on a previous website that they said that you could be charged with brandishing (OC is not brandishing, and there is AG opinion to support it), and that it is a violation without a CCW. They basically said that you can only carry concealed, and only with a CCW. Since there is documentation to the contrary, it should be interesting to hear their response.

    I may have to look up thier contact info. Where did you find it? I saw nothing about contacting them on the website except a feedback feature that allows an email.

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    An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

    This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

    http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

    To be exact:

    9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


    The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

    This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

    http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

    To be exact:

    9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


    The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.
    Rouge, review this thread, it should answer most of your questions.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/9724.html

    Welcome to OCDO.

    P.S. Please review all achives for the Michigan Forum, you will find it well worth your time.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Rogue9er wrote:
    An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

    This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

    http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

    To be exact:

    9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


    The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.
    Rouge, review this thread, it should answer most of your questions.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/9724.html

    Welcome to OCDO.

    P.S. Please review all achives for the Michigan Forum, you will find it well worth your time.
    Thanks for the point, it does sum everything up well. I've been lurking on the MI forums for some time now.

    I'll probably print that out and wallet it. It'll be nice to have law names and court cases, but I get the feeling that the LEOs around here aren't very interested in that.

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    You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.
    Yeah, I have to call in to find what's university. I'm pretty sure as long as I'm not in the diag block or on the grass surrounding any university building, I'm good. I'm probably just going to take a stroll down state street to BTB or something for starters.

  19. #19
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    ghostrider wrote:
    You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.
    Not only UofM, but also, MSU & WSU. Personally, I don't think their (those universities mentioned) ordinances trump state preemption. Even if they did, I don't believe Rouge would be violating any firearm law, especially, if he had a CPL???

    His worst case scenario would be expulsion, IMO.

  20. #20
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.
    Not only UofM, but also, MSU & WSU. Personally, I don't think their (those universities mentioned) ordinances trump state preemption. Even if they did, I don't believe Rouge would be violating any firearm law, especially, if he had a CPL???

    His worst case scenario would be expulsion, IMO.
    Amusingly, I can't carry on university grounds, but the U can't really expel non-students. Lame much. So yeah, I'd get kicked out, which would be a pretty serious problem.


    I'll just make sure of what the rules are. Maybe I'll stick to main street, which is a few blocks away from any campus buildings at all.

    But seriously, if a LEO starts to give me trouble, what can he order me to do? Put it away? If I get told that once, am I disobeying an officers' order if I OC the next week? I couldn't find any mention of what the penalties were for the ordinance.

  21. #21
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    Rogue9er wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.
    Not only UofM, but also, MSU & WSU. Personally, I don't think their (those universities mentioned) ordinances trump state preemption. Even if they did, I don't believe Rouge would be violating any firearm law, especially, if he had a CPL???

    His worst case scenario would be expulsion, IMO.
    Amusingly, I can't carry on university grounds, but the U can't really expel non-students. Lame much. So yeah, I'd get kicked out, which would be a pretty serious problem.


    I'll just make sure of what the rules are. Maybe I'll stick to main street, which is a few blocks away from any campus buildings at all.

    But seriously, if a LEO starts to give me trouble, what can he order me to do? Put it away? If I get told that once, am I disobeying an officers' order if I OC the next week? I couldn't find any mention of what the penalties were for the ordinance.
    Rogue, unless I missed it, I don't recall you mentioningthat you did/did nothave a CPL. Assuming that you don't, OC on foot, is legal in MIchigan (See OCDO Home Page then click on Michigan).

    Even if the university policy/ordinances prohibits students from possessing weapons/firearms on campus, you may choose to park off-campus (Public Parking) to divert campus policy.

    Where you need to be careful is:Lawful Transport ofa handgun without a CPL.

    I will look for it (Lawful Transport) and post it here shorty.

    Your last question/concern has many factors. At this time, with you being new here, I would recommend reviewing as many Threads/Posts as you can, especially in the Michigan Forum.

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    Rogue,
    You can open carry on federal forrest lands, state forrest lands, state parks, anywhere it is legal to open carry. You can't have loaded weapons in National Parks. The sleeping Bear National Lake shore allows hunting so you can have a firearm there during state hunting seasons.

    But in order to transport you firearm without a CPL you are limited to lawful purposes which are defined by law. You can't just drive around with an unloaded cased handgun in your car unless you meet the criteria below. While in transport means going straight to and from, no stopping at the store, no going shopping, no going for a drive. You can't transport your handgun in a vehicle and say go out shopping and strap on the old firearm when you get to the mall. It is very hard to open carry in Michigan because of the below conditions. You can start out from your home or business on foot or on a bike or on a motorcycle and open carry.

    Those with CPL's can transport their handguns and either open or conceal carry, because they are allowed to transport their handguns without having to meet the below conditions.

    From the Michigan State Police Web Site.

    7. If I do not have a CCW permit, may I transport my pistol in a motor vehicle?

    Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    The law defines ‘lawful purpose’ as:

    • While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    • While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair.
    • While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business.
    • While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol.
    • While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale.
    • While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted.
    • While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
    Federal Law on the Transportation of Firearms. Title 18 U.S.C. Section 926A

  23. #23
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    I'm planning on getting the CCW within the next week or two, but don't have it yet. I'm not too worried about the transport thing, I don't usually have a car. I generally walk or take the bus.

    My main reason for wanting to open carry is the comfort factor, as I only have a full 92F right now. It's also something of a socio-political statement in a place like A2. I think I've read all the relevant laws for transport, buying, licensing, etc., so I should be ok in those areas.

    For sure, I'll be CCing most of the time, where possible. However, for when I do OC, my main concern remains to be LEOs who are either ignorant of the law, or who try to enforce the illegitimate ordinance. I've read posts on it, but it seems that most of the incidents occurred in places without ordinances. I'll probably call the police station or something like that tomorrow. Maybe the DA.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    I’m looking forward to hearing that response. I know on a previous website that they said that you could be charged with brandishing (OC is not brandishing, and there is AG opinion to support it), and that it is a violation without a CCW. They basically said that you can only carry concealed, and only with a CCW. Since there is documentation to the contrary, it should be interesting to hear their response.

    I may have to look up thier contact info. Where did you find it? I saw nothing about contacting them on the website except a feedback feature that allows an email.
    If your refering to GRPD I used their feedback feature. They didn't reply to me at first. They sent a follow up email containing something of a survery asking how their customer service was, essentially. I replied that they never responded at all. And so they got a hold of someone immediately and I got a reply from someone in the department that day.

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

    This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

    http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

    To be exact:

    9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


    The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.

    It simple guys and gals. All these ordinances on open carry are ILLEGAL. We have a state exemption law and a Supreme court decision on this. We have presented facts on this question about local ordinances prohibiting open carry and have shown they are illegal. Most of the ordinances were on the books before 1990 when the preemption law went into affect. They keep them on the books to control the uneducated.

    DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT THE POLICE TELL YOU. EVEN SOME PROSECUTING ATTORNEYS ARE NOT AWARE OF THIS LAW. Below is some information that may be helpful. OPEN CARRY IS LEGAL in any local jurisdiction. Don't be sheep. Stand up to the forces that be.


    I have posted on other threads what I send to local police chiefs via email. Of the 10 or so I have sent out I have only heard back from one. I recently sent this to the Detroit Police Chief and she has not responed back, but at least her office receivedinfo.

    No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to [/b]Michigan[/b]’s preemption law.[/b]

    [/b]In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    THE [/b]MICHIGAN[/b] SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED[/b]: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    MCRGO v. [/b]Ferndale[/b]: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.
    [/b]
    [/b]Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.[/b]

    ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    BRANDISHING[/b] Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: [/b]…In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish."[/b] This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.[/b]


    WHAT I SEND TO LOCAL CHIEFS:

    Dear Chief XXXX:
    Attached is information on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. It is our hope that this information is helpful to you and that you will take the time to review the information and inform your officers on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. We also hope that you work with your 911 dispatchers in regards to asking some simple question when they receive a call of a “person with a gun”. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard and appreciate the difficult job you all do.
    Sincerely,
    Brian G. Jeffs
    Michigan Open Carry


    PURPOSE: To provide guidance in calls for services that involves a person who is openly carrying a pistol in a holster[/b].

    As you may know any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who can legally possess a firearm may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law without a CPL (1). Those that do not have a CPL when transporting their firearms must do so as prescribe by law. No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law (2).

    Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm (3). Attorney General Opinion 7101, 2/02 states “…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.”
    In regards to disorderly conduct due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry.Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address.No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. Officers should not editorialize against open carry by private citizens in any way shape or form, or in any way suggest that a person should conceal their firearm. Suggestions and editorializing against lawful open carry may be interpreted as “commands” by civilians who are lawfully open carrying and may subject officers to complaints filed against them, as well as possible legal action against themselves and the department.

    Recently it has been opined by the AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi that persons with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. (4).

    It is suggested that Law enforcement supervisors inform their staff in regards to the legality of openly carrying a handgun in Michigan. It is also suggested that an officer protocol be developed in dealing with such a call. It also would be beneficial to inform your dispatchers and your county 911 department in developing a protocol on receiving a “man with a gun” call. An example of some questions to ask a person calling 911 about a person openly carrying is included.


    It is our hope that by informing you and all law enforcement personnel throughout the state about the legality of open carry that we can avoid any civil or criminal actions that might otherwise occur. If you have questions or concerns please contact your prosecuting attorney. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard, and as law abiding citizens we appreciate the demanding and dangerous work you all do.

    Footnotes:[/b]

    (1)[/b] Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    c) A court.

    d) A theatre.

    e) A sports arena.

    f) A day care center.

    g) A hospital.

    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession

    of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    b) A peace officer.

    c) [/b]A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon[/b].[/b]

    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [/b]

    (2)[/b] MSP Legal Update Newsletter: April 2007[/b]
    Did You Know: It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol.

    Preemption:[/b] In MCRGO v. Ferndale[/b], the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession. Therefore, officers should check with their prosecutors before enforcing an ordinance that imposes a general ban on openly carrying a pistol.

    THE MICHIGAN SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED:
    April 29, 2003 9:10 am v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas. [/b]

    [/b]Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.


    In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    (3)[/b] [/b]Act 328 of 1931
    750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor.
    Sec. 234e.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
    History: Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff.
    Mar. 28, 1991

    Opinion No. 7101 [/b]February 6, 2002[/b][/b]In part:

    … Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,2 none of the cases define the term.

    In[/b] the absence of any reported [/b]Michigan[/b] appellate court decisions defining "brandishing,"[/b] it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, SecondCollege Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

    It is my opinion, therefore, …by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. [/b]JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, Attorney General
    4)[/b] Three opinions on this topic. An AG’s opinion, the [/b]Michigan State Police, and a State Senator’s.


    AG opinion No. 7097 [/b]FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN January 11, 2002: This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    c) A court.

    d) A theatre.

    e) A sports arena.

    f) A day care center.

    g) A hospital.

    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession

    of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    b) A peace officer.

    c) [/b]A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon[/b].[/b]

    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]

    By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol,… is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.[/b]

    MSP opinion:[/b] Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police

    Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd.

    East Lansing, MI 48823

    (517) 336-6441

    Senator Prusi’s opinion:[/b] My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.

    My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter….Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"


    Example of a 911 Protocol for a “Person with a gun call”][/b]


    911: This is 911 what is your emergency?[/b]

    Caller[/b]: [/b]Ah….not sure if this is an emergency but there’s some guy with a gun on his belt here in the Wal-Mart.

    [/b]911:[/b]Is the gun in a holster or is this person waving the gun around or threatening anyone? Is anyone injured? What is the man doing?

    [/b]Caller: [/b]Aaah…no one is hurt. Aaaah…the guy is just shopping. Pushing a cart looking at some frozen carrots I think. Yah he’s looking at carrots.[/b]

    [/b]911: [/b]Does this man seem to be intoxicated or mentally impaired? Does he appear to be acting irrationally?
    [/b]
    [/b]Caller: No he doesn’t seem to be acting strange other than the gun. Can’t you send some officers here to check him out? Think of the children.

    911: Does the person appear to be 18 years old or older?

    [/b]Caller: I would say he’s about 35 years old, average build, dark short hair, and he has a short beard. He’s wearing khaki pants with a dark blue polo shirt.
    [/b]
    [/b]911: Sir, the open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and we’ll send a car, but until then have a good night.[/b]

    [/b]If 911 dispatchers had a protocol similar to this over simplified example for handling this type of call; that is just by asking a few short questions the adrenalin factor would be reduced and officer stress would be diminished. Each department can decide if a patrol car needs to be dispatched to investigate this kind of call, and if so, the officer would have more information on how to handle the encounter.





    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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