Interaction with Grand Rapids Police Department

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Below is my email coresspondents with the GRPD regarding open-carry.

One word....unbelievable. The first message is from GRPD. The message after it is the reply i made today.

_________________________________________________________________



Good Morning,

In response to your question regarding “open-carrying of a handgun within city limits”, there is a city ordinance.

It is found under the Firearms section of the City of Grand Rapids Ordinance - Sec. 9.173 – Carrying.

It states: “No person all carry any firearm upon his or her person in any public street, alley or other place open to the public in the City of Grand Rapids unless”:

(1) The person has been issued a valid license to do so as provided by Act 372 of Michigan Public Acts of 1927, as amended (MSA 28.91 et seq., MCL 28.421 et seq.), or (i.e. CPL permit)

(2) All ammunition has been removed from the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine of the firearm and the firearm has been noticeably rendered inoperable by being broken down or disassembled or is completely enclosed within a case or other similar container. (i.e. disassembled or locked in a container)


If you any further questions please feel free to email or contact me directly.


Evie Torres
616-456-3350





Thank you for the reply

Does this not mean that the city of Grand Rapids is in violation of the Firearm Preemption Law of Michigan.

2-1990 MCL 123.1102 (PREEMPTION LAW) A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to,… ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms,... This law was upheld by the MI Supreme Court. (www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf )

This clearly implies that a city cannot make rules pertaining to open-carry. Since it restricts local units of government from imposing any kind of ordinance relating to transportation and possession of pistols or other firearms. It's up the state and federal gov.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thank you for your time and service.

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I can't wait to see what they say back, but personally I would have sent that information in the first email.

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An email recieved by a friend

Mr. XXXXXXX

Open carry is legal in Michigan, regardless of local ordinance. Put another way - local governments may not lawfully prevent open carry (except in state recognized pistol free zones). The only exception is where state law has allowed the state and local government to prohibit all firearms possession in certain areas. This would most often arise in game areas by way of agreement between the DNR and a local government. However, at this time we're not aware of any such restrictions being in place.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Evie Torres needs to study some law before giving out advice.

So I say, GRPD can go suck an egg.

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I try not to throw facts around in my initial email. I don't want to make the po po go "uh oh, its another gun nut" ....at least not right away. First I peek their interest, then BAM! Hit em with the law! lol.

I am getting really inconsistant replies from local authorities. Wyoming said its the same as state law, so basically what state says or doesn't say goes. Grand Rapids seems to have some issues with it, and I'm still waiting on Grandville and Kentwood. And of course I was told its legal from state police.

It sounds like no matter what if i open carry i'm bound to find trouble around here.

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Evie Torres didn't say it was illegal in the city. She just said there is an ordinance.

Scare tactic. Counting on you not knowing about state pre-emption.

A good question would be whether they plan to enforce the illegal city ordinance. I wonder if it wouldn't be best to send the question directly to the prosecutor's office and the city attorney. The police will listen to their opinion. Officially, anyway.

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Citizen wrote:

Evie Torres didn't say it was illegal in the city. She just said there is an ordinance.

Scare tactic. Counting on you not knowing about state pre-emption.

A good question would be whether they plan to enforce the illegal city ordinance. I wonder if it wouldn't be best to send the question directly to the prosecutor's office and the city attorney. The police will listen to their opinion. Officially, anyway.

Click to expand...

I am going to get a hold of William A. Forsyth, the kent county prosecutor and forward him my conversation with the GRPD and get his opinion on the matter.

I will give updates in this thread as I get the replies.

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Hahaha! You guys won't (well probably will) believe this!

Evelyn Torres replies back to me just now saying only


"Your welcome!"



Apparently she took "Feedback is much appreciated" as meaning I am thanking her for her initial feedback only, and require no further replies. lol oh gosh.

I guess that's the end of that conversation. sheesh.



Edit: btw, I am still getting a hold of the prosecuting attorney of kent county, and I did just send a reply to Evelyn asking:

So....in contradiction of Michigan Firearm Preemption Law.....Grand Rapids Police Department will enforce this ordinance by arresting a person who has a loaded pistol that is openly carried and secured in a holster... in plain view? Is this correct or no?

I ask to clear up any confusion on my part.

Thanks again,
Tim

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The city of Ferndale was in violation of state law untill MCRGO took them to court. Grand Rapids and many other cities violate the state preemption law all the time with thier Pistol Purchase Permit application process, and some others with thier Safety Check process. This is one of those cases of police being willing to violate the laws they don't agree with.

Edited to add:

I noticed that she didn't give her title within the GRPD. Do you know what it is and if you were even corresponding with the correct person?

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ghostrider wrote:

The city of Ferndale was in violation of state law untill MCRGO took them to court. Grand Rapids and many other cities violate the state preemption law all the time with thier Pistol Purchase Permit application process, and some others with thier Safety Check process. This is one of those cases of police being willing to violate the laws they don't agree with.

Edited to add:

I noticed that she didn't give her title within the GRPD. Do you know what it is and if you were even corresponding with the correct person?

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She didn't give her title. I have had more dialogue with her since my last post on the thread, and you can tell she probably isn't the "right" person to be talking to. You will understand when I post the whole thing, some of it is actually pretty funny, she mistakes me for a person in their office name Tim. lol. She did pass my question on to someone who would better answer it. When I get the full answer to my question, I will post the entire email conversation.

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Hey, Qodosh,

Thanks for your educational efforts directed at the G.R.P.D. We just gotta keep 'em in their place. Thanks again.

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Ford Truck wrote:

Hey, Qodosh,

Thanks for your educational efforts directed at the G.R.P.D. We just gotta keep 'em in their place. Thanks again.

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Your very welcome.



I got word back from the GRPD saying that they are inquiring with local attorneys office. I was told they will get back to me when they get a response from the attorney.

I will probably post a new thread with that information so as to make sure the information is visible enough.

Just to clarify, the issue i brought up to them that they are trying to resolve was concerning michigan firearm preemption law and their city ordinance regarding the ban on open carry. Apparently the police in the station didn't know how to respond since they are bringing it to the attorneys.

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I’m looking forward to hearing that response. I know on a previous website that they said that you could be charged with brandishing (OC is not brandishing, and there is AG opinion to support it), and that it is a violation without a CCW. They basically said that you can only carry concealed, and only with a CCW. Since there is documentation to the contrary, it should be interesting to hear their response.

I may have to look up thier contact info. Where did you find it? I saw nothing about contacting them on the website except a feedback feature that allows an email.

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An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

To be exact:

9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.

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Rogue9er wrote:

An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

To be exact:

9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.

Click to expand...

Rouge, review this thread, it should answer most of your questions.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/9724.html

Welcome to OCDO.

P.S. Please review all achives for the Michigan Forum, you will find it well worth your time.

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

Rogue9er wrote:

An interesting line of inquiry. This is something I also have to worry about, as I'm in Ann Arbor (gun-loving paradise that it is).

This is a link to the Ann Arbor ordinances on Weapons and Explosives:

http://tinyurl.com/44qjg3

To be exact:

9:262. Possession of weapons or firearms in public places. (1)A person shall not possess any weapon in any public place, with the following exceptions: (a)A law enforcement officer of any governmental unit may possess a weapon to the extent that such possession is required for the performance of lawful duties. (b)A person may possess a weapon when in connection with a regularly scheduled educational, recreational, or training program under adequate supervision. (c)An established dealer in weapons or repairer of weapons may possess weapons in the place of business for purposes of making lawful sale or repair of the weapons. (d)The proprietor of a place of business, or the proprietor's duly authorized agent, may possess a weapon in the place of business for purposes of protecting the place of business. (e)A person may possess a weapon for purposes of transporting the weapon to any location where it may lawfully be possessed under this ordinance; provided, however, that when being transported, the weapon shall be encased, and, in the case of guns, shall be unloaded, except in the case of BB guns. (f)A person may possess a weapon under the provisions of a valid state permit for the carrying of a concealed weapon.


The question is, how do I deal with this? I'm a college student, I have neither the funds nor the time to get arrested over this.

Click to expand...

Rouge, review this thread, it should answer most of your questions.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/9724.html

Welcome to OCDO.

P.S. Please review all achives for the Michigan Forum, you will find it well worth your time.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the point, it does sum everything up well. I've been lurking on the MI forums for some time now.

I'll probably print that out and wallet it. It'll be nice to have law names and court cases, but I get the feeling that the LEOs around here aren't very interested in that.

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You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.

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ghostrider wrote:

You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.

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Yeah, I have to call in to find what's university. I'm pretty sure as long as I'm not in the diag block or on the grass surrounding any university building, I'm good. I'm probably just going to take a stroll down state street to BTB or something for starters.

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ghostrider wrote:

You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.

Click to expand...

Not only UofM, but also, MSU & WSU. Personally, I don't think their (those universities mentioned) ordinances trump state preemption. Even if they did, I don't believe Rouge would be violating any firearm law, especially, if he had a CPL???

His worst case scenario would be expulsion, IMO.

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

You have to be careful in Ann Arbor because much of it might be considered University grounds, in which case carrying might be prohibited (there's still been no definite answer to if they are considered local units of government). Furthermore, you also may be subject to rules of the shcool you are attending.

Click to expand...

Not only UofM, but also, MSU & WSU. Personally, I don't think their (those universities mentioned) ordinances trump state preemption. Even if they did, I don't believe Rouge would be violating any firearm law, especially, if he had a CPL???

His worst case scenario would be expulsion, IMO.

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Amusingly, I can't carry on university grounds, but the U can't really expel non-students. Lame much. So yeah, I'd get kicked out, which would be a pretty serious problem.


I'll just make sure of what the rules are. Maybe I'll stick to main street, which is a few blocks away from any campus buildings at all.

But seriously, if a LEO starts to give me trouble, what can he order me to do? Put it away? If I get told that once, am I disobeying an officers' order if I OC the next week? I couldn't find any mention of what the penalties were for the ordinance.