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  1. #1
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    Just found this site: http://www.guncite.com and thought I'd share.

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    Yes it is, I actually just came across that yesterday.

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    http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm


    I went to that site link and I found what Obama said about firearms.
    also I am following the 08 Democrat election, and from what I have been seeing it looks like Obama will win the Democratic nomination. Lets say he does win, and he does become president, do you think a lot of our privileges will be taken away, like CC, and OC? I say this because of his statement on CC, you can read it in the link given. I just think if he is in office we can just burn out CC permits. And lock our PDFA in our house. I mean, I like some of his views on the issues that we as a nation face today, but I am thinking on a personal level here. DO you think we will beF***ed if he is in office?


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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm


    I went to that site link and I found what Obama said about firearms.
    also I am following the 08 Democrat election, and from what I have been seeing it looks like Obama will win the Democratic nomination. Lets say he does win, and he does become president, do you think a lot of our privileges will be taken away, like CC, and OC? I say this because of his statement on CC, you can read it in the link given. I just think if he is in office we can just burn out CC permits. And lock our PDFA in our house. I mean, I like some of his views on the issues that we as a nation face today, but I am thinking on a personal level here. DO you think we will beF***ed if he is in office?
    I know it is nitpicking, but they are not privileges, they are rights he would be taking away. Obviously, the consent of congress would be helpful to himbut I think he would do everything in his power to restrict, ban, and limit as much as he possibly can. This SCOTUS decision coming in Juneis very important and will help determine how much momentum one side will have over the other, IMO.
    Peace through superior firepower

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    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    Yeah you are correct 100% they are our rights, more than a privilege. With that being said, I hope our rights are not limited to those that the people in DC have that would suck.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Good site with lots of info. There have been several references from that site on the forum.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bara...un_Control.htm


    I went to that site link and I found what Obama said about firearms.
    also I am following the 08 Democrat election, and from what I have been seeing it looks like Obama will win the Democratic nomination. Lets say he does win, and he does become president, do you think a lot of our privileges will be taken away, like CC, and OC? I say this because of his statement on CC, you can read it in the link given. I just think if he is in office we can just burn out CC permits. And lock our PDFA in our house. I mean, I like some of his views on the issues that we as a nation face today, but I am thinking on a personal level here. DO you think we will beF***ed if he is in office?
    I think he'd sign the "Assault" Weapons Ban because so many other people want to push it through. But that's about it. I see him as harming us more through socializing everything, since that's the cool thing among sh**ple now... they're too irresponsible to control their spending, so they need Big Brother to do it for them.

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    Personally, i think if Obama wins the Democratic vote, he doesnt have any real chance against McCain, though i support Paul and the revolution 100% i dotn think he has much of a chance anymore in the 2008 elections at winning the nomination. Of the three that are receving the most media attention (Clinton, Obama, & McCain) i thing McCain is the lesser of the three evils, he is the only one of the three that openly supports our 2nd amendment rights (not including paul, whom i think is the best candidate to represent gun owners as well), Clintons policies frankly scare me a bit, and obama concerns me aswell.

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    hekel wrote:
    Personally, i think if Obama wins the Democratic vote, he doesnt have any real chance against McCain, though i support Paul and the revolution 100% i dotn think he has much of a chance anymore in the 2008 elections at winning the nomination. Of the three that are receving the most media attention (Clinton, Obama, & McCain) i thing McCain is the lesser of the three evils, he is the only one of the three that openly supports our 2nd amendment rights (not including paul, whom i think is the best candidate to represent gun owners as well), Clintons policies frankly scare me a bit, and obama concerns me aswell.
    This election reminds me of the 1996 election A LOT.. McCain reminds me of a BobDole that actually speaks. I somehow thinkMcCain would find a way to lose.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    Flintlock wrote:
    hekel wrote:
    Personally, i think if Obama wins the Democratic vote, he doesnt have any real chance against McCain, though i support Paul and the revolution 100% i dotn think he has much of a chance anymore in the 2008 elections at winning the nomination. Of the three that are receving the most media attention (Clinton, Obama, & McCain) i thing McCain is the lesser of the three evils, he is the only one of the three that openly supports our 2nd amendment rights (not including paul, whom i think is the best candidate to represent gun owners as well), Clintons policies frankly scare me a bit, and obama concerns me aswell.
    This election reminds me of the 1996 election A LOT.. McCain reminds me of a BobDole that actually speaks. I somehow thinkMcCain would find a way to lose.
    He doesn't need to find a way. He already takes severely unpopular positions, has no clue about economic issues and has no strong base of support.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Yeah you are correct 100% they are our rights, more than a privilege. With that being said, I hope our rights are not limited to those that the people in DC have that would suck.
    Wether to CCW or OC is a right no matter what BUT the Government/States have made it a "Privilege" (The Permit) to CCW.

    Make it a free carry ALL OVER THE STATES like it's suppossed to be:celebrate



    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    SNIP Wether to CCW or OC is a right no matter what BUT the Government/States have made it a "Privilege" (The Permit) to CCW.
    "Shall issue" has turned that around a good bit.

    A permit in a shall-issue state is really just a "this guy has been pre-cleared as a non-criminal" slip. Its not so much a permit as it is verification that you are not a crook and thus arenot denied the right to carry like crooks are. The document just tells the police you are not a disqualified possessor.

    Saves the tedium of getting arrested and having to wait in jail for 45 days while they run the backround check and so forth.

    I'm not saying that its perfect. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't be presumedqualified unless the government can prove we're not. I am saying "shall issue" knocked a big hole in theprivilege business.



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    SNIP Wether to CCW or OC is a right no matter what BUT the Government/States have made it a "Privilege" (The Permit) to CCW.
    "Shall issue" has turned that around a good bit.

    A permit in a shall-issue state is really just a "this guy has been pre-cleared as a non-criminal" slip. Its not so much a permit as it is verification that you are not a crook and thus arenot denied the right to carry like crooks are. The document just tells the police you are not a disqualified possessor.

    Saves the tedium of getting arrested and having to wait in jail for 45 days while they run the backround check and so forth.

    A permit should NOT exist AT ALL. That was NOT part of the 2nd Amendment.

    We should't even have a drivers license cuz there were NO drivers licenses as we very firest started to drive.

    The Government should NOT know how much you make and should NOT tax you. It should NOT know wether you have gun or not. They should not even know if you have a car.

    We the People have given the Government WAY TOO MUCH power.

    We NEED to take it back.

    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    SNIP Wether to CCW or OC is a right no matter what BUT the Government/States have made it a "Privilege" (The Permit) to CCW.
    "Shall issue" has turned that around a good bit.

    A permit in a shall-issue state is really just a "this guy has been pre-cleared as a non-criminal" slip. Its not so much a permit as it is verification that you are not a crook and thus arenot denied the right to carry like crooks are. The document just tells the police you are not a disqualified possessor.

    Saves the tedium of getting arrested and having to wait in jail for 45 days while they run the backround check and so forth.

    SNIP A permit should NOT exist AT ALL. That was NOT part of the 2nd Amendment.
    I added some "edit" while you were composing your post, I think.

    I agree. Given the actual usefulness to the police, I don't think there should be a permit either, whether its called a permit or a pre-clearance slip.

    Having a permit doesn't stop the police from seizing the gun for officer protection. And it doesn't stop them from running your drivers license for warrants and so forth. Nor checking the gun to see if its stolen.

    Never mind that criminals are going to carry anyway.

    I just don't think the privilege aspect exists to the extent it did prior to shall issue.

    As to your other strong feelings, a fella named Lysander Spooner said in 1870 or so, "The Constitution has given us such government as we have, or was powerless to stop it." And that was in 1870!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I agree completely, a criminal doesnt care about the laws, otherwise he wouldnt be a criminal, if they want to conceal, they are going to conceal, and if they plan on killing someone with a firearm, odds are they illegally obtained said firearm. The ONLY thing a permit does is prevent honest citizens from carrying, for instance I'm 20, i am not yet old enough to get a resident permit for pennsylvania, though i am a legal adult, I own a handgun, and I may legally OC, but I may not conceal, this prevents me from exercising my 2nd amendment rights while in a vehicle, and as a consequense i don't carry as often as I would like. Personally i can think of countless scenarios where my life or the lives of those around me might be in danger while in a vehicle where a loaded firearm could increase chances of our safty. Does the state expect me to tell an armed criminal "Timeout while i get my pistol out of its case and load it, please."?

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    I think he'd be a LOT worse than that (simply signing an "aasault weapon ban, that is):

    ==========================================

    In Response To A 1996 Independent Voters Of Illinois Questionnaire, Obama Indicated That He Supported Banning The “Manufacture, Sale And Possession Of Handguns.” Question: “Do you support state legislation to … ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?” Obama’s Response: “Yes.” (Independent Voters Of Illinois Independent Precinct Organization 1996 General Candidate Questionnaire, Barack Obama Responses, 9/9/96)

    Scholar John Lott Recalls Obama Stating: “I Don’t Believe That People Should Be Able To Own Guns.” John Lott: “In fact, I knew Obama during the mid-1990s, and his answers to IVI’s question on guns fit well with the Obama that I knew. Indeed, the first time I introduced myself to him he said ‘Oh, you are the gun guy.’ I responded ‘Yes, I guess so.’ He simply responded that ‘I don’t believe that people should be able to own guns.’”

    Obama Has Expressed His Opposition To Concealed Carry. Obama: “I mean, I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.” (David Mendell, “Obama Has Center In His Sights,” Chicago Tribune, 4/27/04)

    Obama Was Director Of Anti-Gun Joyce Foundation, Which Spent Millions On Gun-Control Causes. “Adding even further skepticism to Obama’s claim of support for the 2nd Amendment is his previous service as a director of the Joyce Foundation. Since 2000, the Joyce Foundation has provided over $15 Million in funding to radical gun control organizations such as the Violence Policy Center and the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence. The Joyce Foundation is tightly linked to the Soros Open Society Institute -- an extremist group that advocates a worldwide ban on civilian firearm ownership.” (Illinois State Rifle Association, “ISRA Blasts Candidate Obama On His Record Of Hostility Toward Law-Abiding Firearm Owners,” Press Release, 8/24/04)

    In 2003, Obama Voted In Support Of Legislation That “Would Have Banned Most Of The Privately Held Hunting Shotguns, Target Rifles, And Black Powder Rifles” In Illinois. “[i]n 2003, Obama voted in support of SB1195, which, if passed, would have banned most of the privately held hunting shotguns, target rifles, and black powder rifles in the state. If the ban was enacted, law enforcement officials would have been authorized to forcibly enter private homes to confiscate newly banned firearms.” (Illinois State Rifle Association, “ISRA Blasts Candidate Obama On His Record Of Hostility Toward Law-Abiding Firearm Owners,” Press Release, 8/24/04)

    Obama Supported Banning “The Sale Or Transfer Of All Forms Of Semi-Automatic Weapons.” According to his responses to an Illinois State Legislative Election 1998 National Political Awareness Test, Obama pledged to “Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.” (Project Vote Smart Website, www.votesmart.org, Accessed 3/5/08)

    Running For The U.S. Senate In 2004, Obama Advocated National Gun-Control Legislation. “On the issue of prohibiting citizens from carrying concealed weapons, Obama said he believes national legislation should be passed to ‘prevent other states’ laws [allowing citizens to conceal their guns] from threatening the safety of Illinois residents.’” (John Chase, “Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns,” Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04)

    In 2005, Obama Voted Twice To Hold Manufacturers, Distributors, Dealers And Importers Of Firearms And Ammunition Liable For The Acts Of Criminals. (S. 397, CQ Vote #206: Motion Agreed To 66-32: R 53-1; D 13-30; I 0-1, 7/26/05, Obama Voted Nay; S. 397, CQ Vote #219: Passed 65-31: R 50-2; D 14-29; I 1-0, 7/29/05, Obama Voted Nay)

    In 2004, Obama Voted Against Self-Defense Rights. “[Obama] opposed letting people use a self-defense argument if charged with violating local handgun bans by using weapons in their homes. The bill was a reaction to a Chicago-area man who, after shooting an intruder, was charged with a handgun violation.” (“Obama Record May Be Gold Mine For Critics,” The Associated Press, 1/17/07)

    Obama Believes The DC Gun Ban Is Constitutional. “Obama believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional.” (James Oliphant and Michael J. Higgins, “Court To Hear Gun Case,” Chicago Tribune, 11/20/07)

    Obama Has Received “F” Ratings From The National Rifle Association:
    In 2004, 2002 And 1998, Obama Received “F” Ratings From The National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund. The NRA has given Obama 3 “F’s.” (National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund Website, www.nrapvf.org, Accessed 1/8/08; National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund Website, www.nrapvf.org, Accessed 1/8/08; 1998 Illinois National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund Political Preference Chart, p.2)


    ==========================================

    The anti-gunners' are going to leap for joy if Obama gets elected, because apparently they already own him - he (Obama) will gladly instigate and sign for passage into law, every single anti-gun law that gets through both Houses to his desk.

    What's even sadder is that - according to GOA - McCaine's no better ( http://www.gunowners.org/mccaintb.htm ).

    This brings me to what I see as the most vital question of all:

    When the shtf and the anti-gun laws start rolling out and the confiscations begin, how are we going to present UNITED resistance to the authorities?

    We can all say how we're going to fight, proclaim to the high heavens that they'll only take our guns "out of my cold, dead hands" - but seriously, that's not going to BE much of a problem for them if all we have is a series of one (gunowner)-against- many (stormtroopers/SWAT) scenarios.

    The individual will lose every single time.

    Any effect we have will be seriously dimished by the fact of our deaths on an individual basis - and I'm sure each victim will be dis-credited by the authorities by being branded "criminals", "suspected drug dealers", "suspected child molesters/ pornographers", etc.

    It's awfully easy to plant evidence (either physical or computer-related) while ones' body is cooling on the floor. The Administrations' slant and aim will be to make sure that the general public never knows the truth behind any of these future incidents.

    So my question is - how do those of us who WILL forcefully resist get together in numbers sufficient to (a) be effective and (b) get recognized for what we'll REALLY be doing (fighting for our God-given RIGHT to self-defense)? Pete

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    hekel wrote:
    I agree completely, a criminal doesnt care about the laws, otherwise he wouldnt be a criminal, if they want to conceal, they are going to conceal, and if they plan on killing someone with a firearm, odds are they illegally obtained said firearm. The ONLY thing a permit does is prevent honest citizens from carrying, for instance I'm 20, i am not yet old enough to get a resident permit for pennsylvania, though i am a legal adult, I own a handgun, and I may legally OC, but I may not conceal, this prevents me from exercising my 2nd amendment rights while in a vehicle, and as a consequense i don't carry as often as I would like. Personally i can think of countless scenarios where my life or the lives of those around me might be in danger while in a vehicle where a loaded firearm could increase chances of our safty. Does the state expect me to tell an armed criminal "Timeout while i get my pistol out of its case and load it, please."?
    Actually, Pennsylvania doesn't even allow you to do that. Unloaded/disassembled/locked-in-trunk transport of a handgun is illegal without a LTCF. It's not even like Ohio where you can transport your handgun unloaded while driving from destination to destination and then just load it and OC it when you're out of the vehicle. So unless you get somewhere by walking off of your property and continuing to walk to your destination, without going within 1000 feet of any K-12 school grounds, you can't OC without a license in Pennsylvania. Essentially, this is a de facto "licensed open carry" state.

    Granted, once one turns 21, it is extraordinarily easy to get a LTCF (outside of Philadelphia), and one can OC or CC anywhere in the state except courthouses.

    But yes, the licensing process is ridiculous, especially in a shall-issue state like Pennsylvania where LTCFs are granted so readily anyhow... is it really worth the amount of time wasted by PA LE agencies to go, "uh, yeah, he's legal to own a gun, so he's legal to carry it"? I get the feeling that the $20 application fee is more than used up by the resources spent in granting said permit.

    Anyhow, I'll stop before I go off on a rant about the "Adult, But Not Really" (ABNR) class of citizens aged 18-20, who are expected to function as adults in society but are given limited access to rights.

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    unless going to or from the range or transporting from one place of residence to another, or buisiness, etc.... but i am nitpicking

    i also hear i can get a non-resident license from another state that allows 18+ and is acnowkeged by PA.. but i can wait 6 months now

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    spy1 wrote:
    I think he'd be a LOT worse than that (simply signing an "aasault weapon ban, that is):

    ==========================================

    Question: “Do you support state legislation to … ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?” Obama’s Response: “Yes.”
    I doubt Barack Obama plans to outright ban handguns. Also, I assume you don't know what that "..." means in that question. There was obviously a large chunk of text missing.

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    hekel wrote:
    unless going to or from the range or transporting from one place of residence to another, or buisiness, etc.... but i am nitpicking

    i also hear i can get a non-resident license from another state that allows 18+ and is acnowkeged by PA.. but i can wait 6 months now
    As for the former, while the "place of business" argument is contentious, you'd need a good lawyer to prove it, or to prove that the law is so vague as to be unconstitutional. In general, you can be charged with carrying a firearm without a license if you so much as stop for gas on the way to or from a range when transporting your gun unloaded and locked in trunk.

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