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Misc - Testing body armor

Weak 9mm

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Hopefully the military didn't test it like these guys did! :uhoh:
 

Giustiniani

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Actually from all the research that I have done, what I saw is that the military did not test it fairly on the same conditions as they did the interceptor. But, then again, IIRC it DID fail the cold weather/frozen test.

My thought is that it was some brass's ex-army buddy and wanted him to win the contract or some such nonsense.

In any case, Dragonskin is not even close to $10,000. It depends on the level of protection you get, but the baseline front protection is around $2100. It goes up from there depending on the thickness of the plates you get and the amount of protection (small, chest area only, to full protection, back, sides, neck, shoulders). I think the high price for it is around $6,500. I plan on buying Level II front and back with upper respitory by next summer.

Gwee
 

Weak 9mm

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I'm not sure if part of that was talking to me but I just meant that if it failed, I hoped nobody was wearing it at the time, like they did in this. As well as the whole shooting themselves with a .44 magnum with such an unstable grip.



$6500 is a lot more than most body armor I've seen. I can't imagine buying the lowest level of protection and only in the front. I would probably prefer a $20 surplus police vest (Hey, it's better than nothing) or a new reasonably priced vest over a $2000 vest that I can't afford and only protects my chest. If I were going to get it, I'd get it in the model that actually offers more than or the same protection as a Level II kevlar vest while being more concealable due to the lack of those huge plates. If the lesser models don't offer that, why spend all of that extra money?

I'm not saying it sucks, but it is going to be thousands and thousands of dollars for one that offers enough of an advantage over normal Kevlar for it to be worth it IMO. To me, $6500 is plenty close to $10000. Honestly, if you can afford to drop over $6000 on body armor, you could probably drop $10000. It really doesn't seem like it was that bad of a guess on their part.

I mean, if it was $200 I could see you arguing about it being "not even close, blah blah blah," but seriously, it's expensive, there's no way around that. If you're in the group of people who can purchase that, good for you, but for me it's certainly close enough to $10k that it doesn't matter.


Re spit, or y.

Spit again, or why. Respiratory! :celebrate
 

LEO 229

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Vests break down over time. My agency replaces them about every 3 years. The material loses the strength to stop the rounds so be cautious is you do buy one that is old.

They are good for the shooting range I guess but in the civilian world... if you have to wear a vest where you are going... maybe you should not go. ;)

I wear a vest all shift and look forward to taking it off before going home.
 

IdahoCorsair

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LEO 229 wrote:
Vests break down over time. My agency replaces them about every 3 years. The material loses the strength to stop the rounds so be cautious is you do buy one that is old.
Not true.
Look up bulletproofme.com and they'll show you why. 20 year old vests that were worn full time for 3-5 years, (then say in storage) sweated on etc and they still stop ALL rounds they were rated to stop.
Agencies replace them all the time because the 'warranty' expires and they have taxpayers' money to spend, so why not? Kinda like troops replacing Aimpoint batteries every month (they last years). Why? Cause they can and it gives them peace of mind.


 

Weak 9mm

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They are good for the shooting range I guess but in the civilian world... if you have to wear a vest where you are going... maybe you should not go. ;) I wear a vest all shift and look forward to taking it off before going home.

Sure, that's super easy for you to say, but I can't just stop going to school. Until they stop disarming me it does appear that I don't have a whole lot of choice in that if I want some kind of protection. It could very well make the difference.

Also, I don't own body armor, nor do I plan on purchasing it at this time. All I said is that I can't afford Dragon Skin, and that it IS expensive. The point was I'd rather have a $20 vest than no vest because I can't afford it, and that was the only point that was made.
 

Giustiniani

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Hey, I agree completely. 6.5k is close enought o 10k. But I'll tell you what, I want something that will stop rounds again and again. In the next 14 years of duty that I plan on serving, I am definately going to feel that buying a set of this is a sound investment. My life > money. My family's well being > all.

What with armor you hit upon the very same topic that is an 'issue' with carrying a firearm. My place of employment cannot guarantee my safety from the front gate to my front door, so the protection is up to me. I don't see myself buying this stuff and then wearing it from the office home, but it'll be available in case of deployment or SHTF stuff.

At any rate, you can't deny it is good. But the $20 vest IS more feasible for the average joe.

Gwee
 

Weak 9mm

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Oh, yeah, it's more like amazing. I would love to have it if I could affort it, that's for certain!


And imagine, if you ever had to lay on a grenade, your head and limbs might be gone, but you'll still have a torso. :p
 

LEO 229

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IdahoCorsair wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Vests break down over time. My agency replaces them about every 3 years. The material loses the strength to stop the rounds so be cautious is you do buy one that is old.
Not true.
Look up bulletproofme.com and they'll show you why. 20 year old vests that were worn full time for 3-5 years, (then say in storage) sweated on etc and they still stop ALL rounds they were rated to stop.
Agencies replace them all the time because the 'warranty' expires and they have taxpayers' money to spend, so why not? Kinda like troops replacing Aimpoint batteries every month (they last years). Why? Cause they can and it gives them peace of mind.
Well, I have nothing to offer except what I was told. I can imagine that it is not good forever so there must be a time when it will fail. I would hate to be the one depending on it. ;)


I sure will not refuse a new vest every three years!!
 

Weak 9mm

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I'm almost done with a textile engineering degree, so I have a good idea about quite a few fibers in general. The main problem with Kevlar is UV degradation, and being stored at high temperatures (Higher than you could live in...).

As long as you don't just leave it exposed to the sun all day long or leave it in your oven it should be fine. The other thing is you can snag a couple vests for $20 and shoot a few first to verify that they weren't stored improperly, lol. Again, I think it's significantly better than nothing, and I doubt many Police Departments store their vests at 160 degrees celsius or in direct sunlight. It will not degrade in the atmosphere, otherwise it could be ruined before it was ever even woven into a fabric. It often takes a long time to get from spinning to a finished product.

The main reason the old surplus vests are cheap is that they can't be used any longer because the way body armor is classified changed. Anything made before that can no longer be sold as body armor from my understanding. It should still function, however. Newer body armor, that is still considered body armor, can be had for a bit over $100, and should work just fine.
 

BobCav

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IdahoCorsair wrote:
Kinda like troops replacing Aimpoint batteries every month (they last years). Why? Cause they can and it gives them peace of mind.
In the Navy we were required to use Snap-On tools on our Gas Turbine engines because supposedlyonly their nickle platingwould not wear off harming the engine.

When a wrench broke, we were not authorized to return it, that was against supply regs, but had to purchase a new one and dispose of the old ones. Oh we disposed of them alright.... rightintoour pockets. It's nothing to catch the Snap-On truck!
 

Tomahawk

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BobCav wrote:
IdahoCorsair wrote:
Kinda like troops replacing Aimpoint batteries every month (they last years). Why? Cause they can and it gives them peace of mind.
In the Navy we were required to use Snap-On tools on our Gas Turbine engines because supposedlyonly their nickle platingwould not wear off harming the engine.

When a wrench broke, we were not authorized to return it, that was against supply regs, but had to purchase a new one and dispose of the old ones. Oh we disposed of them alright.... rightintoour pockets. It's nothing to catch the Snap-On truck!
When I was fixing aviation electronics (avionics) in the Corps we had the crappiest tools tax money could be wasted on. Aviation safety is strict, so all tools are inventoried at the start and end of every shift to keep some bonehead from leaving a screwdriver inside a jet plane and killing somebody, but this also means you cannot, under any circumstances, use a non-inventoried tool, not your own screwdriver, not the Leatherman in your pocket, nothing. Eventually we managed to get them to buy us some good Snap-On tools because the crappy screwdrivers they kept giving us were softer than the damn screws.
 

PT111

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Replacing a vest after the warranty expires is much like throwing away food after the use by date. If something is guaranteed to be good for three years then it isn't going to magically become no good after 3 years and one month but how long after the three years will it start to fail. If one is being used that is 4 years old and it fails imagine the outcry from the public and the dead LEO's wife for not providing adequate protection even if the age of the vest had nothing to do with it.

I like LEO229's comment that if you need to wear a vest then you need to consider if you need to go there to start with. With that said where can I get some of those $20 vests? :question:
 

Weak 9mm

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You can get those vests at http://www.bulletproofme.com

As a soon to be textile engineer I'm going to guarantee you that unless you've stored it improperly for a long time period, it will be fine. You'll also notice that the body that actually rates these vests (NIJ) even admits that older armor, even up to 10 years old, is fine.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Bullet_proof_Vests_Catalog.shtml#Police_Surplus

[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"][/font]
NIJ tests failed to demonstrate any significant differences in 10-year-old armor, regardless of the extent of use or apparent physical condition
[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]
The warranty exists solely to limit the manufacturer's liability on the product and is not a reflection of the anticipated service life of the product.
[/font]

They do not say that about the armor made before they changed the ratings though. That armor is no longer able to be sold as body armor, and is probably weaker, not due to degradation, but due to different requirements (And possibly different methods of weaving and other factors) at that time. They said it stops .357 JSP and 9mm without a problem though, and show the vest after it's been shot. But that's the reason it's $20, it's "not body armor." You can buy a few of them and shoot them yourself if you want to see how strong they are.

If you spend around $100 or a bit more, you can get a newer, still considered body armor, kevlar vest. This is probably what I'd do, but the $20 vest is DEFINITELY better than nothing. Kevlar does not degrade readily in the atmosphere like food does. That analogy was kind of poor. Check out the tests they've done on that website as well as the information provided about older body armor. I don't think kevlar "expires" after 3 years. It could even expire as filament yarns in storage and/or could be significantly degraded before even being woven if that were the case. The Kevlar we use at school doesn't have that problem..

Unless you're storing it at 160 degrees celsius, which would kill you if you were in those conditions (40 degrees celsius is a very hot summer day), or in direct sunlight for years, then it will not degrade like you're saying. It will degrade, as all things do eventually, but it does take quite a bit of time. Also consider that the kevlar is not directly exposed to light, even if all you were wearing was the vest itself, unless the vest's exterior is somehow torn.

An interesting fact is that kevlar, on a molecular level, is identical to nomex except that the benzene rings are oriented parallel to the polymer chain instead of perpendicular. This makes a very straight polymer chain that has strong cross-linking with other chains, making the tensile strength very high. Hence the reason it can handle an impact when woven into a fabric. If you impact the fabric normal to the fabric's plane, it pulls on all of the fibers in the weave. This stuff isn't really going to biodegrade too easily though, it's an aramid, fully synthetic.


I like LEO229's comment that if you need to wear a vest then you need to consider if you need to go there to start with.
I said it once in this thread, and I'll say it again:

Not all of us have a choice; some of us are "forced" (I know, I could quit school and work, but then I'd likely be poor and would owe tons of money on student loans for nothing) to work or go to school in victim disarmament zones. I made a thread recently about two guys being robbed at gunpoint in front of their dorm on campus where I go to school. People are regularly robbed at my school, and I have to be disarmed to be legal on campus. My school has it's own police department, with horses, bicycles, trucks, cars, etc. They are on patrol all the time, and it still happens constantly. I think we all know why that is, don't we?

Yeah, "don't go" my a**. That's really easy for you to say, but I don't plan on giving up my degree because you think I shouldn't go to school. Wearing a vest may have saved numerous people in these school shootings, just like having guns may have. I don't see why you can't accept the fact that people do in fact have to go into harms way occasionally, and by harms way I mean just about any university in this country.

Just because someone is considering body armor doesn't mean they're going out to get into a gang war.

Why do you carry a gun? If you "think you need it" so much then you shouldn't be going out of your house. :quirky

In fact, if you "think you need" a gun in your house, you shouldn't be there either!!! :banghead:

This is just another "insurance policy" IMO. You know everybody on here likes to say, "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." Why do you think that can't apply to a low cost kevlar vest?
 

PT111

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Weak 9mm; What school do you attend? I work at a college, my three children all attend college, I havemany cousins, nephews and nieces and friends attending colleges in both SC and NC and am familiar with just about every one of them in both states. I don't know of a single person that is too afraid to attend class without a vest that they won't go. They may not feel totally safe but you are starting to sound paranoid. There is not a single college in either state that I would feel in more danger on campus than I would walking down the streets of the town.
 

expvideo

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Weak 9mm wrote:
I like LEO229's comment that if you need to wear a vest then you need to consider if you need to go there to start with.
I said it once in this thread, and I'll say it again:

Not all of us have a choice; some of us are "forced" (I know, I could quit school and work, but then I'd likely be poor and would owe tons of money on student loans for nothing) to work or go to school in victim disarmament zones. I made a thread recently about two guys being robbed at gunpoint in front of their dorm on campus where I go to school. People are regularly robbed at my school, and I have to be disarmed to be legal on campus. My school has it's own police department, with horses, bicycles, trucks, cars, etc. They are on patrol all the time, and it still happens constantly. I think we all know why that is, don't we?

Yeah, "don't go" my a**. That's really easy for you to say, but I don't plan on giving up my degree because you think I shouldn't go to school. Wearing a vest may have saved numerous people in these school shootings, just like having guns may have. I don't see why you can't accept the fact that people do in fact have to go into harms way occasionally, and by harms way I mean just about any university in this country.

Just because someone is considering body armor doesn't mean they're going out to get into a gang war.

...

I think that LEO229 made the statement in a more general sense. Some people (you for example) may have a very good reason for wearing body armor, but I think his comment was more directed at the people that choose to go to nightclubs in bad neighborhoods, or visit friends that live in the "ghetto", etc. The statement is referring to people that do have a choice of whether or not to go to dangerous places. At least that was my understanding of it.

As for your points, I think you have articulated very well that you have a very good reason for wearing body armor. If I was a student, I would possibly consider wearing it, and for the same reasons.

I think that I am more the kind of person that LEO229's statement was aimed at. I am a person that owns body armor but never wears it, unless I think I may need it. LEO229's point is that people like me should avoid needing it, rather than doing whatever it is or going where ever it is that I think is going to put me in harms way anyway. For example, if I really felt that I needed body armor to talk to the gangsters in my earlier example, LEO229 is saying that I should have called in a noise compliant instead of putting myself in that position. This is my understanding of his statement, I don't think he was telling you to drop out of school. :D
 

thx997303

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I'd just like to remind everyone of how the dragonskin is put together, with overlapping plates you get weak points. I would not trust the dragonskin if someone were to shoot up at me. dead on and at downward angles it would work. Oh and they failed the test concerning moisture and rotting. That's a huge thing right now. In our current operational locations, freezing is not really a huge concern. These are only my observations as I don't know whther anyone was paid off or not.
 

Weak 9mm

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I had thought about that as well, in the chance that someone shot up at an angle and got a round to go between the plates. I would think they've thought of that already and have designed it in such a way as to prevent this, but maybe not.


Also, to the posts above:

I don't wear body armor as of this time, but I have considered snagging one of the lower cost vests for the reasons above. I also noticed upon further inspection that they charge $25 "per panel" for the older "non-body armor" body armor. That makes me wonder if it's not a full vest, but in fact just a panel. Even so, it should be better than nothing, but I'd probably go with one of the $100 or so vests.
 

Sheldon

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A few points, yes the stuff is expensive but how much do you think your life is worth?

after seeing what they did to the Dragonskin I have a hard time believing that it failed the mil test, someone had to have had their hands in some ones pockets.

BG's are starting to use old level II stuff while committing crimes, so we all need to practice the Mozambique drill religiously.

I wonder how much body heat the stuff makes you retain?

now they need to work on protecting the rest of the body, Dragon sleeves, face mask, and undies anyone?
 
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