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Thread: now i want to get permit

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    hey guys, i'm new to this site...been reading forums for a few days and decided i wanted to share a story with you and get opinions on things...

    about a year ago i bought a glock 23, and took a concealed weapons class so i could get my permit...this was back in october of 2007...as of this day i still haven't turned in my application...but something happened the other day to my ex that makes me want to get it...she was at a local mall in Virginia with our daughter and her friend...they were outside smoking, but her friend was holding the baby and went inside the store...so my ex was left outside smoking beside the stroller, when she notices a man walking towards the mall who appears under the influence of drugs...she said the man walked up without saying a word, and reaches in the stroller...then he just looks at her and walks inside...

    now lets say i happened to be there with her, and had my permit and my gun on me...lets say same situation played out with the druggie, and he reaches in the stroller and actually grabs my 11 month old daughter...i can't say what i would have done in that situation, but would shooting the man after he picked her up be justified? by justified i mean would that be a legal use of deadly force? another question i have is if you see someone getting robbed at gunpoint, or even with a knife and you thought they would/could be harmed or killed, would shooting the BG be a legal use of deadly force?

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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    hey guys, i'm new to this site...been reading forums for a few days and decided i wanted to share a story with you and get opinions on things...

    about a year ago i bought a glock 23, and took a concealed weapons class so i could get my permit...this was back in october of 2007...as of this day i still haven't turned in my application...but something happened the other day to my ex that makes me want to get it...she was at a local mall in Virginia with our daughter and her friend...they were outside smoking, but her friend was holding the baby and went inside the store...so my ex was left outside smoking beside the stroller, when she notices a man walking towards the mall who appears under the influence of drugs...she said the man walked up without saying a word, and reaches in the stroller...then he just looks at her and walks inside...

    now lets say i happened to be there with her, and had my permit and my gun on me...lets say same situation played out with the druggie, and he reaches in the stroller and actually grabs my 11 month old daughter...i can't say what i would have done in that situation, but would shooting the man after he picked her up be justified? by justified i mean would that be a legal use of deadly force? another question i have is if you see someone getting robbed at gunpoint, or even with a knife and you thought they would/could be harmed or killed, would shooting the BG be a legal use of deadly force?
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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    hey guys, i'm new to this site...been reading forums for a few days and decided i wanted to share a story with you and get opinions on things...

    about a year ago i bought a glock 23, and took a concealed weapons class so i could get my permit...this was back in october of 2007...as of this day i still haven't turned in my application...but something happened the other day to my ex that makes me want to get it...she was at a local mall in Virginia with our daughter and her friend...they were outside smoking, but her friend was holding the baby and went inside the store...so my ex was left outside smoking beside the stroller, when she notices a man walking towards the mall who appears under the influence of drugs...she said the man walked up without saying a word, and reaches in the stroller...then he just looks at her and walks inside...

    now lets say i happened to be there with her, and had my permit and my gun on me...lets say same situation played out with the druggie, and he reaches in the stroller and actually grabs my 11 month old daughter...i can't say what i would have done in that situation, but would shooting the man after he picked her up be justified? by justified i mean would that be a legal use of deadly force? another question i have is if you see someone getting robbed at gunpoint, or even with a knife and you thought they would/could be harmed or killed, would shooting the BG be a legal use of deadly force?
    You have asked some very good questions. Shows wisdom.

    You should look in your local gunstore for a book called, Virginia Gun Owners Guide. It answers some of your questions. You can also find it at http://www.gunlaws.com.

    There is a whole bunch of information to learn. It mainly breaks down into tactics and legalities. And ballistics.

    You can dig as deep as you want. I recommend going deep.

    I'll give an opinion as to the stroller. Your ex will want to pay more attention to the surroundings. Same for you. Youboth would have spotted him and manuvered to protect the child from possible assault or kidnapping before he reached. At the very least you would have had enough warning to loudly shout, "GET AWAY FROM MY BABY!" While stepping forward to deliver a very, very hard punch to his jaw.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Any time you contemplate using deadly force.... you have to decide if there is a threat or death or serious physical injury to another. This is what others are going to view after all is said and done.

    Many people will get to sit back and judge what you did knowing all the details and the outcome. Whatever you decide..... try your best to do everything else in your power before resorting to having to take a life.

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    I was thinking, if the guy actually had your baby in his hands, would you really want to risk shooting at him? In the stress and chaos there is the possibility of hitting your own. I can't imagine what that would do to your life, regardless of whether or not you got in trouble.

    As others stated, the best thing is to be aware that you and your ex must increase your situational awareness at all times, but especially when you've got your child in a public place. Preventing the situation from getting to that point in the first place is the best option. Place yourself between the suspicious individual and your baby. Tell the individual to get away, and if they don't, act accordingly. You'll want to use lethal force as the absolute last resort. I don't think you'd necessarily get in trouble for it, but at the very least it will, of course, be a life changing experience and may cost you tons of money in the long run. This is a crazy world, be careful out there.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Any time you contemplate using deadly force.... you have to decide if there is a threat or death or serious physical injury to another. This is what others are going to view after all is said and done.

    Many people will get to sit back and judge what you did knowing all the details and the outcome. Whatever you decide..... try your best to do everything else in your power before resorting to having to take a life.
    We constantly are reminded of the concept of "the thread of death or serious bodily harm". However, this raises a few points and unfortunately, causes me to stray somewhat from the topic of this thread. But I don't want to forget this.

    As I understand it, there are several other "gray" factors which weigh into this concept, a few of which are: perception, disparity of force, and the victim's defensive ability (which ties in to disparity of force).

    Perception may be the most gray of these. How one person perceives a serious threat may differ from another. If the mother, or both, perceived the approaching man who suddenly reaches into the crib to grap their child as a serious threat, then their deadly response would seem to be justified.

    Now suppose we have a victim of an attack. The victim is a 50 year old man of average build and the attacker is a 22 year old man. The attacker has no visible weapon. But the 50 year old has bad legs and therefore, cannot respond in kind. Are we to expect him to suffer a serious beating, or worse? We would most certainly say no if he were a she, or if he was confined to a wheel chair. But his bad legs could also preclude him from working out and, of course, fighting effectively. So he is at a real disadvantage.

    I would hope that a prosecutor or a grand jury takes as much of this in mind, in favor of the victim hopefully, when taking their decisions.

    It's the gray areas that can cause hesitation and thus, injury or death of a victim.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Weak 9mm wrote:
    I was thinking, if the guy actually had your baby in his hands, would you really want to risk shooting at him? In the stress and chaos there is the possibility of hitting your own. I can't imagine what that would do to your life, regardless of whether or not you got in trouble.

    As others stated, the best thing is to be aware that you and your ex must increase your situational awareness at all times, but especially when you've got your child in a public place. Preventing the situation from getting to that point in the first place is the best option. Place yourself between the suspicious individual and your baby. Tell the individual to get away, and if they don't, act accordingly. You'll want to use lethal force as the absolute last resort. I don't think you'd necessarily get in trouble for it, but at the very least it will, of course, be a life changing experience and may cost you tons of money in the long run. This is a crazy world, be careful out there.
    Just what I was gonna say... See, this is why we need you on this forum, Weak 9mm, you save me a bunch of typing.


    Looking at situations from the perspective of, "What can I do to avoid using lethal force while still staying safe?" is going to prove much more legally (and arguably morally) advantageous than, "How soon can I use lethal force against someone?"

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    Citizen wrote:

    I'll give an opinion as to the stroller. Your ex will want to pay more attention to the surroundings. Same for you. Youboth would have spotted him and manuvered to protect the child from possible assault or kidnapping before he reached. At the very least you would have had enough warning to loudly shout, "GET AWAY FROM MY BABY!" While stepping forward to deliver a very, very hard punch to his jaw.
    +1000
    As the protector of your child, you must place yourself between the child and the aggressor. As for your ex, did she just stand there and let him reach in without saying anything or doing anything?

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    Evil Ernie wrote:
    Citizen wrote:

    I'll give an opinion as to the stroller. Your ex will want to pay more attention to the surroundings. Same for you. Youboth would have spotted him and manuvered to protect the child from possible assault or kidnapping before he reached. At the very least you would have had enough warning to loudly shout, "GET AWAY FROM MY BABY!" While stepping forward to deliver a very, very hard punch to his jaw.
    +1000
    As the protector of your child, you must place yourself between the child and the aggressor. As for your ex, did she just stand there and let him reach in without saying anything or doing anything?
    thats exactly what she did...she never said a word to the man...she told me she was too scared to say anything because he was obviously on hard drugs and she didn't know if he had a weapon...now i don't know what i would have done then either...i'm 5'6", 135 pounds and i'm almost 25, so basically some 16 year olds i know outweigh me drastically...which is why i'm now seriously considering getting my permit, although its a year after i took the class...

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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    Evil Ernie wrote:
    Citizen wrote:

    I'll give an opinion as to the stroller. Your ex will want to pay more attention to the surroundings. Same for you. Youboth would have spotted him and manuvered to protect the child from possible assault or kidnapping before he reached. At the very least you would have had enough warning to loudly shout, "GET AWAY FROM MY BABY!" While stepping forward to deliver a very, very hard punch to his jaw.
    +1000
    As the protector of your child, you must place yourself between the child and the aggressor. As for your ex, did she just stand there and let him reach in without saying anything or doing anything?
    thats exactly what she did...she never said a word to the man...she told me she was too scared to say anything because he was obviously on hard drugs and she didn't know if he had a weapon...now i don't know what i would have done then either...i'm 5'6", 135 pounds and i'm almost 25, so basically some 16 year olds i know outweigh me drastically...which is why i'm now seriously considering getting my permit, although its a year after i took the class...
    Would she have still been too scared if he wasn't "obviously on hard drugs"? You know, as opposed to being obviously on softer drugs, like nicotine? Or would there have been another excuse to just submit?

    I just don't buy the whole "he looks dangerous" excuse for not engaging someone who is threatening you. If he looks dangerous, all the more reason to engage him in order to avoid or minimize harm. Now, as I read the story, the baby wasn't in the stroller at the time, so perhaps the mother figured there would be no harm to the baby and thus it wasn't worth getting into a confrontation, which I would say is a prudent thing to do. But it sounds like she wanted to confront him, but didn't because she was scared of him.

    I think it's time for some self-defense training, as well as watching a video of grizzly bears protecting their cubs... Maybe some openly carried handguns in there too. I get the feeling baby-snatchers are much less inclined to steal a baby from an OCer than the average non-OCer...

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    Evil Ernie wrote:
    Citizen wrote:

    I'll give an opinion as to the stroller. Your ex will want to pay more attention to the surroundings. Same for you. Youboth would have spotted him and manuvered to protect the child from possible assault or kidnapping before he reached. At the very least you would have had enough warning to loudly shout, "GET AWAY FROM MY BABY!" While stepping forward to deliver a very, very hard punch to his jaw.
    +1000
    As the protector of your child, you must place yourself between the child and the aggressor. As for your ex, did she just stand there and let him reach in without saying anything or doing anything?
    thats exactly what she did...she never said a word to the man...she told me she was too scared to say anything because he was obviously on hard drugs and she didn't know if he had a weapon...now i don't know what i would have done then either...i'm 5'6", 135 pounds and i'm almost 25, so basically some 16 year olds i know outweigh me drastically...which is why i'm now seriously considering getting my permit, although its a year after i took the class...
    Would she have still been too scared if he wasn't "obviously on hard drugs"? You know, as opposed to being obviously on softer drugs, like nicotine? Or would there have been another excuse to just submit?

    I just don't buy the whole "he looks dangerous" excuse for not engaging someone who is threatening you. If he looks dangerous, all the more reason to engage him in order to avoid or minimize harm. Now, as I read the story, the baby wasn't in the stroller at the time, so perhaps the mother figured there would be no harm to the baby and thus it wasn't worth getting into a confrontation, which I would say is a prudent thing to do. But it sounds like she wanted to confront him, but didn't because she was scared of him.

    I think it's time for some self-defense training, as well as watching a video of grizzly bears protecting their cubs... Maybe some openly carried handguns in there too. I get the feeling baby-snatchers are much less inclined to steal a baby from an OCer than the average non-OCer...
    well my ex has a really bad temper...she's stabbed her other ex with a fork, kicked me down the stairs, and had an attempted murder charge for beating a prostitute in the head with a table leg...so i don't think she's the type to make excuses for not confronting someone...she seemed scared, and i would have been too...people on drugs are unpredictible, and in that situation no harm had actually been done...i'm glad she didn't speak out, that could have sparked a violent situation that i do not want her to be in...

    as for being aware of my surroundings, i ALWAYS make sure i know where i am, and who's around...most of my friends joke on me for being "paranoid", but i know thats the first step in avoiding confontation...i also have taken brazilian jiu-jitsu for about a year...it seems most people missed the point i was making, or rather the question i asked...so i will re-word my question:

    if someone, somehow snuck up on you and picked your baby up out of its stroller and you had a weapon (either CC or OC), what would you do?

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    I think a lot of folks addressed your question by saying, in a number of ways, that there's not really one simple answer. Do everything you can to prevent that from happening, and if it does then you're going to have to decide what to do.

    Is it worth it to risk shooting your own child by accident? These kinds of questions can really only be answered by you, but the consensus seems to be that it is best to avoid using lethal force unless there's no other option. Remember that anything that goes wrong as a result of your use of lethal force, even if authorized, will probably come down on you in today's society. There's no one good answer.

    You should probably carry a number of "deterrents" such as CS/OC spray and/or other devices. This will give you more options in case of such an incident. Getting that in your kids eyes can be fixed, putting a bullet in his/her eye probably can't... When a child is essentially being held hostage the stakes get much higher, it becomes more complicated than "simply" defending yourself against an attacker.


    See, this is why we need you on this forum, Weak 9mm, you save me a bunch of typing.
    lol, and I do tend to type a lot!

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    Not to mention that a fall from 4 feet to the ground isn't bound to be too healthy for the baby, provided you hit the kidnapper and not the kid.

    Asking "if someone, somehow snuck up on you and picked your baby up out of its stroller and you had a weapon (either CC or OC), what would you do?" is kind of like asking "Are you still beating your wife?"

    Making assumptions that people will be irresponsible to such a degree that difficult decisions will need to be made. Like... I don't know what I'd do if I were spraying a crowd of orphans with a machinegun and the belted ammo ran out too soon. I don't think about what I'd do because I wouldn't do it.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Making assumptions that people will be irresponsible to such a degree that difficult decisions will need to be made. Like... I don't know what I'd do if I were spraying a crowd of orphans with a machinegun and the belted ammo ran out too soon. I don't think about what I'd do because I wouldn't do it.
    i don't care how careful and aware you think you are, **** happens...i like to think of every possible senerio so if i'm ever caught in the situation, i'll have a plan...i don't see why everyone seems to be attacking me for simply wanting to be prepared, and wanting other opinions from those who carry...i guess i was wrong by posting here, this forum obviously isn't for me

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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    i don't care how careful and aware you think you are, **** happens...i like to think of every possible senerio so if i'm ever caught in the situation, i'll have a plan...i don't see why everyone seems to be attacking me for simply wanting to be prepared, and wanting other opinions from those who carry...i guess i was wrong by posting here, this forum obviously isn't for me
    Do not take someone else's opinion as an attack.

    You are among a group of people who feel very strongly about their idea of what is right and wrong. We will all agree that there is nothing wrong with being prepared and knowing ahead of time what you will do or how far you want to take things.

    This is your chance to view alternatives and get some ideas that you may not have thought about.

    Choose what is you feel is best.

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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    if someone, somehow snuck up on you and picked your baby up out of its stroller and you had a weapon (either CC or OC), what would you do?
    Do get the book I mentioned in my first post. Hunt around on the internet; there are some websites that give the basics of the common law on self-defense.

    This really isn't a "let me ask Uncle Harley" sort of question. And you wouldn't want to rely on the answer if you got one.

    Get a good grounding in the basics of self-defense with a firearm. Once you are solidly grounded in the basics, you will know the answer yourself with complete certainty.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    i don't care how careful and aware you think you are, **** happens...i like to think of every possible senerio so if i'm ever caught in the situation, i'll have a plan...i don't see why everyone seems to be attacking me for simply wanting to be prepared, and wanting other opinions from those who carry...i guess i was wrong by posting here, this forum obviously isn't for me
    Welcome to the site. You have posed some interesting questions. However if you are going topost questions on a public forum you are going to get some answers you like and some you don't. Learn to deal with it and don't expect sugar coating. Take the good and disregard the bad or perhaps enter into a discussion to try and find out why you got the answers you did. Of course if that doesn't work for you there is always the option to take all of your marbles and go home. In any event the choice is yours.



    edit= corrected the first sentence

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    Well, to kind of expand on my last post...

    First of all, I don't like strollers. They needlessly put your baby in a very precarious position to you and essentially sacrifices your baby's safety and security in order to save you from having to do any work... Those devices that allow one to strap a baby directly to oneself seem a much better option, IMO. Anyhow, if I were forced to keep said baby in a stroller, I would make sure to always keep said stroller in a corner, or against a wall, whenever stopped, when my full attention isn't on the baby. Regardless of being stopped or not, I would keep the stroller away from the main flow of traffic, both as a convenience to other people, and if order to prevent anyone from getting too close. Being in condition yellow, I continue scanning the situation for things that don't add up. If someone gets close, it would be an anomoly, and I'd greet the person in a friendly way. Depending on how they respond to that greeting would determine whether I would engage them in friendly banter inspired by the "Oooo cute baby!" factor, take preventive measures to stop a baby-snatching.

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    dillinger83@comcast.net wrote:
    if someone, somehow snuck up on you and picked your baby up out of its stroller and you had a weapon (either CC or OC), what would you do?
    This quote is a little bit revealing in that if someone can sneak up on you and take your baby, what's to keep them from sneaking up on you and taking your gun?

    I'm assuming you haven't open carried much (which you don't need a permit to do in Virginia). If you do start open carrying, I'd be willing to bet that you suddenly start noticing that you're paying a LOT more attention to your surroundings.

    That fact by itself will reduce your chances of a situation like this ever happening again.

    To address your original question, I've seen some people so whacked out on drugs that simply possessing or even brandishing a pistol will have no noticeable effect on the person. It will be up to you to determine if the person is posing an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm to another person, as well as what you will do to alleviate the threat.

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