Targeted at Target in West Seattle

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Had an uncomfortable encounter at Target in Westwood Village in West Seattle this afternoon. I'd like to describe the event here.

I have been OCing in the Seattle area for the past month with relatively no issues until this afternoon. I took my 9 months pregnant wife [due in 4 days with our firstborn!] out to do some shopping today. I was wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt tucked in with my handgun in an Uncle Mike's Sidekick holster on my belt.

We had a great meal at KC's Restaurant on 1st Ave South in Burien, great service and no issues with OCing there. Then we went up to Goodwill to do some thrift shopping, again no issues.

Then we stopped at the Target in Westwood Village in West Seattle to do some shopping. As I walked [and wife waddled, lol] around the store we were followed by staff. At first it wasn't so noticable but when I was trying on shirts in the men's section staff kept pacing back and forth and looking at us. When I found a shirt I wanted to check myself in the mirror with but couldn't find a mirror so I approached an employee to inquire where I could find a mirror. She pointed over to a mirror in the women's section and as I walked over to it I had to walk through a crowd of ten or so employees. The Baby Eagle 45 ACP on my hip had attracted quite a crowd. Then we left the crowd of employees to go look at womens clothes for my wife. Alone in the socks and underwear section we were approached by a female manager and store security officer...

1400, 5-11-2008

Manager, named Rena, "Good afternoon. I wanted to let you know that we have had several complaints about 'a man with a gun walking around the store'. Do you have a permit to carry that gun on your belt?"

Me politely, "I'm just in here shopping with my wife. I haven't harrassed anyone or brandished or touched my gun in anyway. Is there some sort of problem ma'am?"

Manager, Rena, "No problems with you, and I don't want you to feel like you are not welcome here but people see a gun and get scared. I have been a manager for over 7 years and you are the first person I have seen just carrying a firearm on his belt like it's no big deal! Again sir, do you have a permit to have a gun?"

Me, frowning with a confused look, "I do have a CPL ma'am..."

Rena, cutting me off, "To carry it hidden [miming pulling a jacket over her belt]".

Me, "Yes ma'am and to be able to legally carry it with me while I drive. You do know that Washington is an Open Carry state and no license is required to open carry? I am in no way trying to hide the fact that I am armed and have been peacefully shopping with my wife the whole time we've been in here."

Rena, "I understand that sir but you are scaring people by having a gun and not being in a police uniform. Is there some way we can resolve this issue?"

Me, "Ma'am, I am still trying to figure out what the issue is? Have I violated a store policy? I didn't see any signs posted upon entering the store besides the 'No Smoking' sign. Is there a corporate policy prohibiting the legal carry of firearms in Target?"

My awesome wife, annoyed with manager, "We're actually very ready to check out and leave. My husband and I are quite finished shopping here."

Me, "Ma'am we only came here to do a little shopping. Not trying to scare anyone. We'll be on our way now. Do you know if there is a corporate policy prohibiting the legal carry of firearms in Target stores?"

Rena, " I have never been asked that before. I will look into it and if I see you before you leave the store I will tell you if I find anything."

Me, "Thank you ma'am."

We walked away from them and towards the checkout. I then remembered that I had stashed a few WGR pamphlets in my wife's purse. I asked her for one and met up with Rena by the front doors as my wife was paying for our items.

Me, "Hi there again, I just wanted to share this literature with you about the laws of gun carry in Washington State."

She smiled and said thanks and folded the pamphlet up and put it in her pants pocket. As I began to walk away a large man wearing a Target uniform shirt approached me and said,

"Hi, I'm Tom, I'm the store manager here."

Me, "Hi I'm ******* ****. Is it a policy to prohibit the legal carry of firearms here?"

Tom, "Well for us it's more of a private property issue. In the past we've had people come in here with guns and ask us for money. We just ask people to not carry at all in the store."

Me, "I am sorry sir but I didn't see any signs posted upon entering the store."

We were now standing at the entrance/exit and I pointed at the doors and walls.

Me, "Customers have no way of knowing this because you have no signage posted. Washington is an Open Carry state and I had no idea I was going to get grilled for legally carrying while shopping with my wife."

Tom, "It may be legal to carry openly in Washington State but this is private property. We prefer to deal with these types of issues as they come up on a one on one basis."

Me, "So that is your corporate policy?" I was confused and irritated.

Tom, "Thats our store policy here."

By this time my wife had finished checking out and I walked away from Tom to join her. We left and both rolled our eyes at one another as we walked back to our vehicle.

I am emailing Target to see what their policy is on the matter.


WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

-Badger

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That's interesting, since the one at Union and HWY 16 had no issue with OC whatsoever: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=9940&forum_id=55

I would email/call corporate and put in an official harassment complaint on the employees and tell them that the manager is making up rules as he goes.

Edit: I would also suggest that you request an official apology from Tom and Rena for their harassment of you and your wife.

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Use the soft and gentle approach.

Point out that youand your wife have been customers for years. Love the prices. Love the great service, clean store, and knowledgeable staff (cough, cough--little white social lies to smooth ruffled feathers are usually acceptable.)

Maybe point out that since OC is legal, and you weren't brandishing--the legal threshold for reasonable fear--thecomplainers'unreasonable nervousness was the issue. Remind them that some people will complain about anything (that will be very real to them).

Maybe point out your training and permit qualifications that = you are not likely to shoot the place up. Maybe point out that 30 ft all around you tends to be a crime-free zone.

Maybe suggest that to handle future "complaints" the manager can just tell the complainer, "Oh, he's a regular. He's a good guy." Or some simple handling. Maybe the manager can ask for your Target charge card, rather than your weapon permit.

The point is to be very friendly, very non-accusative. If that doesn't work, nothing will.

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"We prefer to deal with these types of issues as they come up on a one on one basis."

Sounds like unequal treatment of customers, if the polocy is not written and chain-wide than it leaves the door open for indavidual managers to discriminate against indavidual shoppers.

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Agent 47 wrote:

"We prefer to deal with these types of issues as they come up on a one on one basis."

Sounds like unequal treatment of customers, if the polocy is not written and chain-wide than it leaves the door open for indavidual managers to discriminate against indavidual shoppers.

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I don't think the discrimination angle will get much traction. I could be wrong. I'd love to be wrong. But I don't think it will without more public support for OC.

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Having unfortantly worked for Target in the past, I can tell you it is not corporate policy. Contact corporate. They are more than happy to settle guest complaints swiftly.

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I have to agree with Agent 47.

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I'd email corporate, ask them what there policy is and for a copy of it. I'd bet you a box of your favorite ammo that their policy mirrors state law, just like most other big stores.

Assuming that their policy is gun friendly, bring a copy of it with next time you go and tell him this aggression will not stand, man! (I just finished watching the Big Lebowski)

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G27 wrote:

Having unfortantly worked for Target in the past, I can tell you it is not corporate policy. Contact corporate. They are more than happy to settle guest complaints swiftly.

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They're ya go.

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badger wrote:

Tom, "Thats our store policy here."

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WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

-Badger

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My thoughts are:

"Tom, I appreciate YOUR Store Policy, now let me intoduce you to my policy. I do not buy from company's with policies that are essentialy making policy on "on the fly". Could you excuse me while I return these purchases? BTW, rest assured that I will not return and also share this experience with as many of my friends that will listen as well as your Corporate Office."

I have done this a couple of times when I ran up against the "Store Nazi" and in only one case was it necessary to follow through.

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Bravo amlevin!

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"Tom, I appreciate YOUR Store Policy, now let me intoduce you to my policy. I do not buy from company's with policies that are essentialy making policy on "on the fly". Could you excuse me while I return these purchases?

Amlevin, stop there. If you continue with the threat you will sound like a crank and a clown. The manager will not get any discipline from coorporate for asking you to cover and he will assume that since sees someone OC once in a blue moon at best, your threat to tell all your friends won't affect his customer base.

Being nice will get you a lot farther. He would like nice people to come back in the store.Trst me on that, I listen to the cranks everyday and I don't care who they tell.

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I think your right Misguided Child...to a point. The manager may not see any discipline, nor will he see any decrease in customers, but....if he saw more of us OC "more than once in a blue moon", perhaps his ideals/opinions may change. I believe it's our part and duty to inform the general public of our laws and rights!

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I OC at my local Target without any problems so far. I have even walked past their security with strong side at them

TJ

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I never had anyone question me at the Gig Harbor store.

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lilothedog wrote:

I think your right Misguided Child...to a point. The manager may not see any discipline, nor will he see any decrease in customers, but....if he saw more of us OC "more than once in a blue moon", perhaps his ideals/opinions may change. I believe it's our part and duty to inform the general public of our laws and rights!

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Absolutely! I carry the brochure every where I go and hand them out often. I've also inserted them into library books on gun control to help those readers get a more balanced view. I just think it's best to be polite while educating the public. We need to let Target corporate know about this manager since he seems to be rewriting policy on a pick and choose basis.

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Misguided Child wrote:

I've also inserted them into library books on gun control to help those readers get a more balanced view.

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LOL:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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Misguided Child wrote:

"Tom, I appreciate YOUR Store Policy, now let me intoduce you to my policy. I do not buy from company's with policies that are essentialy making policy on "on the fly". Could you excuse me while I return these purchases?

Amlevin, stop there. If you continue with the threat you will sound like a crank and a clown. The manager will not get any discipline from coorporate for asking you to cover and he will assume that since sees someone OC once in a blue moon at best, your threat to tell all your friends won't affect his customer base.

Being nice will get you a lot farther. He would like nice people to come back in the store.Trst me on that, I listen to the cranks everyday and I don't care who they tell.

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Since I rarely deal with "Local" management such as Region/Divisional managers I have found that I do get results. I have many times communicated with Vice Presidents and CEO's of Corporations when I have been treated poorly. I can assure you that when I have, those who provided the poor treatment HAVE cared. My most recent encounter was with a Bank and they didn't treat me like a "crank and a clown". As a matter of fact they even went so far as to assign a supervisor to resolve my issue and paid me for my inconvenience.

I recently retired from the "Corporate World" and have spent over 40 years learning how to make people do things that they don't think they have to. Whether it is providing good Customer Service or not "Intimidating" Customers that are going about a legal activity you personally don't like, everyone that draws a paycheck from a corporation is subject to scrutiny from above. If you aren't getting satisfaction from the store manager, take it up the chain. The farther up you go first, the less likelihood that you will be ignored.

Being "Nice" has it's limits. When you reach the limits of "Nice" you have to be prepared to employ a little "Nasty".

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Ajetpilot wrote:

I never had anyone question me at the Gig Harbor store.

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Me either. I've been to the one on Borgen Ave, many times. At most, I've been followed by Security but never stopped.