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Thread: 3 women killed in 3 weeks in Seattle by ex's

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    All three had tried to use the system for protection.

    Debbie Lynn Bonilla was trying to get her husband into batterer's treatment. Baerbel Roznowski had just gotten an anti-harassment order against her boyfriend.

    Tracey Lee Creamer repeatedly called police after her husband bruised and bloodied her, hoping that someone would stop him.

    Each woman had sought help from police or courts. But within a span of two weeks, each was slain in King County, allegedly by their partners.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...omestic12.html


    Thought I'd see if I could help out with self-defense information, range training, etc.
    They said they don't support that. Their recommendations include:

    "At any one time people unconsciously carry many potential weapons. For example, belts may be used as a garrotte or a whip with the buckle, coins may be thrown into the face of an opponent to stun and blind him, clothes may be used to whip, ward off attacks, choke and obscure vision etc.

    Most women carry handbags which can also be used to strike or strangle. In addition, these handbags contain an arsenal of potential, legal weapons e.g. a lipstick case to poke into the eyes, a hair brush to scratch across the eyes, perfume to spray into the eyes etc."

    Great - coins and lipstick. Their poor clients truly don't stand a chance.

    [img]chrome://piclens/content/launch.png[/img]

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    I do not want to sound callous or condecending but in all three of these cases there was long time evidence of violence and sings that this could take place. A court order is just like OC in VA. Until something illegal is done the hands of the police are tied. The police not anyone else can protect you and if you truly have a fear as these ladies did you better make other arrangements besides a court order.

    Now if they had been packing they might have been able to protect themselves but I doubt that it would have been successful for all three, maybe one or two. The best way to protect yourself from this type of violence is do something the first time it happens andnot endure it for 16 years.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    No argument on these men were needing a serious retuning prior to these murders.

    The point is just being driven home over and over that police / courts / advocacy groups / neighbors are simply not going to be able to protect you.

    The only chance these women have is either a lot of money(move, cover tracks, change name, hire guards) or get a gun and training.

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    Jim675 wrote:
    No argument on these men were needing a serious retuning prior to these murders.

    The point is just being driven home over and over that police / courts / advocacy groups / neighbors are simply not going to be able to protect you.

    The only chance these women have is either a lot of money (move, cover tracks, change name, hire guards) or get a gun and training.
    Depending on the state, those two options might be one in the same.

    You know, for safety.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I wish a lot more women made the decision to carry a firearm to defend themselves. Ironically, it seems it is more often women who oppose this fairly simple, direct means of self and family defense, and often those same women are eager to make others as helpless as they choose to be. Sad./

    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    I wish a lot more women made the decision to carry a firearm to defend themselves. Ironically, it seems it is more often women who oppose this fairly simple, direct means of self and family defense, and often those same women are eager to make others as helpless as they choose to be. Sad./
    You're entirely correct, unfortunately. Don't they see the utter stupidity (though that's not strong enough a word) in throwing coins as a means of self-defense? You'd think that with all the womens' rights movements, somewhere in there would be a message that womens' lives are worth being protected by their own guns. Unfortunately, the message of "womens' empowerment" seems to stop when confronted by a rapist and/or killer... then they no longer want to be empowered. It boggles my mind.

    I made the decision a while ago not to so much as date women who won't consider carrying a gun. If they don't have enough self-esteem to feel their own lives are worth protecting, that's pretty damn pathetic.

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    I can imagine throwing coins might work in certain extremely rare circumstances..... you know, if you're a major leage pitcher and practice with them for hours each day.

    They approve of weapons and killing, just not with weapons that are easy to use effectively. I really don't get it. They suggest strangling attackers, but don't you dare shoot them!

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Gotta remember, one of the Illinois State Police's preferred methods of self-defense for women is self-induced vomiting.

    "I swear to God Mr Badguy rapist type with a big knife, a gun and perverse desire to start to cut me into little pieces while I am still alive and then have sex with my corpse before committing an act of cannibalism with parts of my body and dismembering the rest of me, if you take one more step I WILL throw these 2 quarters at you to distract you while I make myself vomit on your shoes. Stop, really, I WILL DO IT!!! DON"T MAKE ME DO IT !!!!!!!"
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Jim675 wrote:
    Their recommendations include:

    "At any one time people unconsciously carry many potential weapons. For example, belts may be used as a garrotte or a whip with the buckle, coins may be thrown into the face of an opponent to stun and blind him, clothes may be used to whip, ward off attacks, choke and obscure vision etc.

    Most women carry handbags which can also be used to strike or strangle. In addition, these handbags contain an arsenal of potential, legal weapons e.g. a lipstick case to poke into the eyes, a hair brush to scratch across the eyes, perfume to spray into the eyes etc."
    [img]chrome://piclens/content/launch.png[/img]
    I just noticed something. Buying a pair of high-impact Oakley's, safety goggles, or any other decent eye protection pretty much eliminates these poor women's entire arsenal.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Massad Ayooob had something to say about all this crap in his book "In the Gravest Extreme" I gave my copy to a woman who was looking at getting a gun for self defense though, so I don't have it handy.

    Basically though we know these ridiculous suggestions of taking off one's belt, or jabbing with libstick are crazy, and are invented solutions by people who are unwilling to arm themselves, nor wish others to arm themselves.

    Makes me sick sometimes. My mother is planning to get a handgun, because she knows at 2 am it is her best bet.

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    I recently had a big fight with my girlfriend because I told her that when I am moving to VA then I am gonna carry a gun as a last resort of self-defence in the face of severe and mortal danger and also to protect my home and my family, let me just tell you that she is the biggest sheep in the world.

    <START RANT>

    When I asked her what she thought I should do if somebody breaks into my home carrying a gun and intend to rob me and cause me serious bodily harm or death, she told me that I shouldn't do anything, so I told her that I needed to defend my own life and the life of my family and possibly also my home but of course the things I have can be replaced, so she tells me that I can then use a baseball bat.

    So my girlfriend don't want me to be able to defend myself whatsoever and if I have to defend myself against a person with a gun then I should use a baseball bat.

    I tried to explain to her that a gun is a long range weapon and a baseball bat can only be used as a close range weapon and that I can be dead before I have been able to swing the bat against my attacker but it just goes in one ear and out the other.

    Lets just say that I don't think we will be together for very long because she won't see the world how it really is, btw my girlfriend has cerebral palsy and is in a motorized wheelchair and says that because she is in a motorized wheelchair she can't protect herself in any way against an attacker.

    Some women have the wool pulled down so far over their eyes that they can use it as a sleeping bag.

    </END RANT>

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    PT111 wrote:
    SNIP I do not want to sound callous or condecending but in all three of these cases there was long time evidence of violence and sings that this could take place. A court order is just like OC in VA. Until something illegal is done the hands of the police are tied. The police not anyone else can protect you and if you truly have a fear as these ladies did you better make other arrangements besides a court order.
    +1

    Iwonder if the the authoritarians don't have some culpability in this.

    "A court order is aCOURT ORDER, andYOU shall obey it!" Or, "Thelaw isTHE LAW, and youSHALL obey it!" I wonder if anassumptiondevelops that there is some inviolability to the lawand that everyone will follow it. We see it hereonOCDOsometimes, "That cop can't do that!"

    I just wonder.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    So my girlfriend don't want me to be able to defend myself whatsoever and if I have to defend myself against a person with a gun then I should use a baseball bat.
    Did you ask her why it's ok to severely injure or kill someone with a baseball bat, but not a gun? Why is it that you need a hard to use weapon? The robber is not worried about making it a fair fight, why should you? Hitting someone in the head or torso with a baseball bat can easily be fatal. Ask her what the difference really is. If you have a gun, you've got the ability (As you said) to strike at a distance, thus increasing your safety. If they're armed with knives or other short range weapons, going at them with a bat is extremely dangerous, and they're going to retaliate for certain, because they wont have much of a choice. They're not just going to stand there and let you do that. The gun may just make them turn around and leave.

    I guess it would be one thing if she said to just do nothing. To support hitting someone with a baseball bat with the intent to disarm and incapacitate, but not support shooting to disarms and incapacitate is odd. Also, the baseball bat will probably just make them shoot you if they've got a gun. If you're armed with a gun it may actually cause them to decide to leave and break off the attack. It seems to me that in the end the gun would reduce the likelihood of you being injured, and may even save the criminal's life in some circumstances. When you talk to her be sure to be rational and don't get excited about it, try to stay calm. The best thing to do is to just be logical, explain that you don't want to use it unless you have to, that it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I'd be willing to bet that if a bad guy did kick down the door and come in your house she's going to want you to have that gun!

    There was something on here, I believe, that discussed some young men robbing people. They decided it was probably best to kill whoever was home so that "they wouldn't get caught." They were so stupid that it didn't dawn on them that killing someone will bring the law down on them, big time. They did kill the person that they robbed, and then used his credit card and got caught very quickly. They wasted his life over a credit card, and in the end they didn't even get anything out of the robbery because they were so stupid that they couldn't even figure out that using a murder victims card might just, you know, be a BAD IDEA. He was violently killed, slowly, with knives, over absolutely nothing. Violent criminals are often incredibly stupid or they're just not thinking clearly due to drugs, mental problems or pure desperation for any number of reasons. IIRC, the interesting thing is that these guys had tried to rob someone before the second person they robbed. That first person had a gun, and they failed in the attack because they were only armed with knives. He did not kill them unfortunately and as a result the second person they robbed wasn't so lucky of course.

    It doesn't always matter what you do, even if you "go along" with what they want. They still may kill you, thinking that they'll somehow be better off and can get away easier. Show her these incidents, talk to her very seriously about this. It is stupid to disarm yourself and "hope for the best." She needs to take her life's importance a little more seriously, and also needs to realize that criminals aren't always rational. They are usually quite crazy.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Along the lines of what Weak9mm said, I bet that she has a misconception of firearms. From watching TV she probably thinks that any gunshot at a criminal will resoult in the BG immediately dropping his weapons, rolling his eyes back in his head and falling down dead. Or if it is a bigger caliber, that if you shoot the BG anywhere in the torso that he will go flying backwards, smashing up the furniture and die nearly instantly. Something worth asking about to further find out where she is coming from .
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Well unfortunately we will never know because we broke up yesterday, it felt like we were drifting apart and I felt my whole life was topsy turvy and I needed to be alone and take care of myself and a lot of other things but she is out of my life and now I am looking forward to finishing Adult HS and then nursing and then possibly medicine but time will tell, only thing I know for sure is that I am some day coming to Virginia. Come Hell or High Water. =oP

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Sleepless wrote:
    Well unfortunately we will never know because we broke up yesterday, it felt like we were drifting apart and I felt my whole life was topsy turvy and I needed to be alone and take care of myself and a lot of other things but she is out of my life and now I am looking forward to finishing Adult HS and then nursing and then possibly medicine but time will tell, only thing I know for sure is that I am some day coming to Virginia. Come Hell or High Water. =oP
    Well if she has a cute sister I sure hope you got her phone number before you said goodbye. :shock:
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Sleepless wrote:
    Well unfortunately we will never know because we broke up yesterday, it felt like we were drifting apart and I felt my whole life was topsy turvy and I needed to be alone and take care of myself and a lot of other things but she is out of my life and now I am looking forward to finishing Adult HS and then nursing and then possibly medicine but time will tell, only thing I know for sure is that I am some day coming to Virginia. Come Hell or High Water. =oP
    Well if she has a cute sister I sure hope you got her phone number before you said goodbye. :shock:
    Naah sorry deepdiver she lives in NC and she has no sister but she does have a brother who lives in Ohio. :P

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I wasn't asking for me. I was thinking you might need a need sympathetic shoulder.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    I wasn't asking for me. I was thinking you might need a need sympathetic shoulder.
    Naah I already have two lined up so to say. :P

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Sleepless wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    I wasn't asking for me. I was thinking you might need a need sympathetic shoulder.
    Naah I already have two lined up so to say. :P
    +1!
    er, +2, well, +1 for 2 or, well, you know what I mean :P
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    "At any one time people unconsciously carry many potential weapons. For example, belts may be used as a garrotte or a whip with the buckle, coins may be thrown into the face of an opponent to stun and blind him, clothes may be used to whip, ward off attacks, choke and obscure vision etc.


    I guess the Nuge was right, "...you can't stop a bad guy with the middle finger and a bag of quarters..."

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