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Thread: Anyone put their local PD's on notice...legally?

  1. #1
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    Just curious if anyone here has sent legal notice to their local Cheif of Police that they open carry? Obviously, its not required, but it sure does give you leverage if/when a LEO decides to violate your rights...especially in civil court should you sue.

    If you decide to go this route, be sure to send notice via USPS, certified mail with return receipt. I believe it costs all of $4.65. Be sure to include all of the relevant code and case law.

    I forgot to add...it would be wise to include the County DA and Sheriff.

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    You know, I have thought of it (Excellent idea, BTW!), but haven't done it.



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    Thought there would be more interest. The goal of putting Law Enforcement on legal notice is it removes their ignorance from the equation. Quite often LEO's "think" they know what the law is and as long as they make an "honest" mistake in regards to open carry the courts are likely to side with them and disregard their unconstitutional actions.

    Once put on legal notice, the CLEO's, DA's and Sheriffs have a legal obligation to train their staff properly. If not, they can face Federal lawsuits for violating your civil rights...

    This case is good example...

    U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
    MACKINNEY v NIELSEN


    To succeed, a S 1983 plaintiff must show that there is a direct link between the city policy and the constitutional violation. Canton v. Harris, 489 U.S. 378, 385 (1989). The plaintiff can show this link by proving that the policy itself is unconstitutional or that the city made a "deliberate" or "conscious" choice to fail to train its employees adequately. Id. at 389.

    Section 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights

    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance,
    regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the
    District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any
    citizen of the United States or other person within the
    jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges,
    or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable
    to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other
    proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought
    against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such
    officer's judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted
    unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was
    unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress
    applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be
    considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

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    This is a good idea which I second. Sending a certified return receipt letter and copies of code and case law would be one way of doing this. Have someone witness your enclosures and the mailing.

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    cato wrote:
    This is a good idea which I second. Sending a certified return receipt letter and copies of code and case law would be one way of doing this. Have someone witness your enclosures and the mailing.
    At my place of employment, we often send documents via certified mail. Our SOP is to photocopy all documents in the envelope and then photocopy the envelope with the certification sticker on it. We don't typically have witnesses for our mailings, unless we expect problems from the recipient.

    It's worth saying again: have someone witness your enclosures. A certified mailing receipt is worthless in court if they can claim you didn't include your enclosures.
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    If you really want to cover yourself: take 2 friends, who have NO INTEREST in OCing, to the copy store. Have them look at the original and then make 3 photocopies. Have them put the original in the envelop and you go w/them as they mail it per previous posts above. Keep the envelop in view of all throughout the process. They keep copies of the original in sealed envelops, as do you. Seal all the envelops w/clear tape and all 3 sign over the tape on all 4 envelops (incl the mailed envelop) that contain the 3 duplicate sets of papers.

    If banks allow safety deposit boxes to require 2 "owners" to be present to open a box, ideally you'd rent 2 safety deposit boxes. In one, you'd put the envelop witness A has and it requires you and witness A to be present to open the box. In the other, you'd do the same w/witness B. You'd give your own copy to your criminal defense attny that you keep on retainer. If ever needed, when you are out on bail, you can go w/your attny and one or the other witness to retrieve an envelop w/the photocopies.

    Or, just have your friends keep them in a safe place (e.g., small fire-proof lockbox -- one time cost of about $30/ea), until you say you need them.

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    Simply use a Notary to verify the contents of your mailing. Their witness is actual evidence in court...virtually beyond reproach.

    To safekeep your documents, to give them "life", you can file copies with your County Courthouse.



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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    awesomeness wrote:
    I just called them today to notify them about how i will open carry in the nearfutureand they seem kinda vague on the matter so since you brought this up i will put this in writing and have itcertified mail. excellent idea. I also tried emailing them but emails don't work so well.
    If you wouldn't mind, could you please post a draft copy of what you are sending? I would like to use it as a template for my own letter to my LEOs.

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    awesomeness wrote:
    ...I will be legally open carrying an unloadedlong gun
    Long gun open carry?This, my friends, is courage. I hope you have a good attorney on retainer... the local Thugs'n'Guns, Inc probably isn't gonna like having one of their subjects riling up the sheeple.


    I hope no violation of your rights or safety occur. Keep us posted.
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    I called my local PD the other week and told the Dispatch that I would be out running and OCing. I gave her the route. She asked me my name and it sounds like she knew of me...:celebrate. She asked to make sure -"You have a permit so what's the reason". -"I'm running and it's more comfortable" kinda answer and I can kinda statement. I called "in case" they got a "guy with a gun" call.

    I never saw a cop. I believe she sent out APB on me so that they were all aware of me.

    Been running the same stretch for the last week without hassle. I have seen several people take notice of the Kimber.

    I dress pretty decent while I run. I wear a polo T-shirt, 5.11 Tac shorts (Tan/Beige??) and a black ball cap. OF COURSE the sun glasses so that I look cool:quirky. The Kimber is strapped in a Serpa Paddle hoster cuz it keeps it closest to the body and 2 mags in the Serpa mag holder.

    I just called them so that they didn't have to "waste resources". That's usually what they say:quirky.

    TJ

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    FYI this is a bad idea to put into writing. The police could consider this as a threat and prove intent.

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    awesomeness wrote:
    FYI this is a bad idea to put into writing. The police could consider this as a threat and prove intent.
    I agree it could potentially be twisted and used against you. However, since your intent is legal it may be useful in your hypothetical defense. I'm sure attorneys would advise against this. Then again, most attorneys would probably advise against any form of lawful carry (except the one where you get a permission slip).

    I'm sure you don't need anybody to tell you what the consequences could be, and none of us can predict what will happen. You can rest assured that you have my support in the free exercise of your rights. Keep us posted. Also, maybe have a friend or family member who can inform us (on this forum) in the event you are arrested. I'm sure you'll have plenty of people wanting to help in whatever way they can. However, we can't help you if we don't know what's going on.
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    Well, guys, I can understand your concern but have you read my "encounters" with the local PD ???

    If so, you know that they know me :celebrate. They know I am no threat to them and that we ( the PD and I ) are on good terms finally, I believe.

    TJ

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    The reason why i said that is because the cops did not take to kindly to my letter. They felt it was threatening and since i live with my parents, they used my parents against me since i still live at home while going to college. I was able to explain the letter was poorly written(could have been better since i wrote it at 1am without proof reading), to avoid any accidentsand OC was more for going to the range. They said if they seen me with a rifle or in the back of the car they would at gun point arrest me and any wrong moves shoot me. They also explained some of the other gun laws. I have a feeling this letter will only hurt me further.

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    awesomeness wrote:
    FYI this is a bad idea to put into writing. The police could consider this as a threat and prove intent.
    Intent of what? How is following the law threatening to the police? Sorry, but I dont think you were ready to clearly define and defend your legal right to open carry.

    Now I feel somewhat guilty for having anything to do with the situation. First of all, you clearly have no idea what "legal notice" is or what purpose it serves. Secondly, that was an extremely poorly written letter...typos, no citations..etc...etc. Third, as I said before, you obviously dont understand what the process was meant to accomplish nor did you have the knowledge to defend your position.

    Help me understand what transpired...you sent off your letter and the cops showed up at your door?

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    BobCav wrote:
    You know, I have thought of it (Excellent idea, BTW!), but haven't done it.

    I'm disagreeing with Bob - First time I think.

    Why put someone on notice that you are doing something legal?

    Our goal, at least mine, is to make it common place. Calling, emailing, or writing seems like you are trying to stand out with a "Hey, look at what I'm going to be doing!"

    Just OC! I do not write the EPA and tell them I am going to vacuum my house. I do not write the local park and tell them I'm going to be there at opening to take a morning hike. I do not write Virginia Game and Wildlife to tell them I will be hunting on my own land.

    OC should be an everyday occurrence.

    Your rights are something you need to fight for, but don't go looking for the fight.

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    possumboy wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    You know, I have thought of it (Excellent idea, BTW!), but haven't done it.

    I'm disagreeing with Bob - First time I think.

    Why put someone on notice that you are doing something legal?

    Our goal, at least mine, is to make it common place. Calling, emailing, or writing seems like you are trying to stand out with a "Hey, look at what I'm going to be doing!"

    Just OC! I do not write the EPA and tell them I am going to vacuum my house. I do not write the local park and tell them I'm going to be there at opening to take a morning hike. I do not write Virginia Game and Wildlife to tell them I will be hunting on my own land.

    OC should be an everyday occurrence.

    Your rights are something you need to fight for, but don't go looking for the fight.
    LOL...first time for everything! Disagreement is a good thing. Here's my thinking, see if you still completely disagree after reading this:

    Whilethe EPA has no say inside your home (nor does OSHA) and Fish, Game and Wildlifehas no say on your property either, I agree 100% that it shouldn't be necessary, but I think that for now, it is.I would add that while lawfullycarrying a gunin public is legal, as we unfortunately know all too well, not all LEO's are aware of that fact, or are aware and choose to ignore the law in favor of their own agenda, therefore making

    At best, it should only be necessary once in any given town. It also gives them notice that you absolutely know and understand the law with regard to carrying your firearmand are not some slack jawed drooler just out to mess with the police, but a responsible citizen that is part of the solution, not part of the problem and not out to make their jbos more difficult. Actually, if more people OC'ed, it should make their jobs easier.

    We may OC in the company of other witnesses or usea recorder to as evidence of such failures during and after the fact,but I see this asanother potential tool that may help BEFORE the fact, a pre-emptive strike as it were, preventing anyone from being Terry Stopped or worse, laid out at gunpoint like ComSec just was. To me, that's as good as gold.

    We do need it to be common place, and while OC'ing is one way to interact with that oneLEO that might notice, or that FEW citizens that may catch a glimpse and ask a question, I believe that this has the potentialto ensure ALL the LEO's in your town are made aware and will probablyreceive training. In fact, you could also submit a pre-existing Training Bulletin or even offer to help in its creation, showing them you're part of the solution, not part of the problem! We already have many folks here that have done just that and it has worked wonders.

    Putting pen to paper and signing it is extremely powerful! They cannot ignore it and must respond. If they are aware of the law, it could lead to anOC training bulletinand training of ALL their officers en-masse on the legality of OCand that IS one of the purposes of OC - education! I can handle the anti's, it's the other guys with guns and agendas that don't know or ignore the law that scare me.

    If they don't know the law, they'll first check to see if it's not illegalwiththe city attorney, then respond either in the affirmative or with what THEY believe to be the law.They will have to commit their response to paper proving beyond a reasonable doubt thatthey either understand the law, or do not.

    To me it seems like another pro-active, make sense thing that you can choose to do to CYA, like keeping a range log and copies of your paper targets.



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