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Thread: BGs with guns in Wal Mart

  1. #1
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    Well, I know of these things happening in the last week because I know a couple of people who work there and yet the local paper hides much of what goes on by not printing anything that happens. Also Alamogordo has this new slogan: "The Happiest Place on Earth," which they started posting up and saying on the local radio stations.

    First a man tries to leave wal mart with a big screen TV. An elderly oriental lady door greeter tries to stop the man and he threatens the lady by flashing his gun and telling her he will shoot her if she tries to stop him stealing the TV. The door greeter made a big fuss: "You are going to shoot and kill me on Mother's Day? What kind of a spineless man are you," could be heard yelled near the front doors. The man escaped and was later caught by the cops, but there was no information about what happened after that.

    Same day, three young black guys buy beer and while leaving, one drops his gun because he was trying to waist band carry it while sagging. The guys ended up fleeing and the cops were called. According to the LEO that responded "he can do that..." It was later found out by a person who knew the guys that the one with the gun has been in and out of jail and would never be able to get a CC permit. Of course, cops just do not seem to care. Also the cops have this "if we did not see it, it did not happen" attitude.

    My wife and I were witnesses in a crime that happened in the Wal Mart parking lot, and later were harassed several times in the parking lot by the BG we witnessed. After calling the cops, the cops replied "If we do not see him harassing you, then it did not happen," even though intimidation of a witness is a felony. Also the LEOs said they could not use Wal Mart video as proof for an arrest and that they could not ever do so.

    Just more reason I assume that everyone and anyone has a gun and aproach any situation as if an possible BGs are armed and extremely dangerous.



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    Mexican saggin'? OH Ho ho ho! Mexican is for big old guys with tight belts!

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    SickTag wrote:
    Same day, three young black guys buy beer and while leaving, one drops his gun because he was trying to waist band carry it while sagging. The guys ended up fleeing and the cops were called. According to the LEO that responded "he can do that..." It was later found out by a person who knew the guys that the one with the gun has been in and out of jail and would never be able to get a CC permit. Of course, cops just do not seem to care. Also the cops have this "if we did not see it, it did not happen" attitude.
    I am not sure what you are getting at here. The LEO responded exactly how everyone wants him to. If someone is walking down the street with a gun whether OC or CC unless the police have a reason to question them there is no reason to do otherwise. The guy with the gun was breaking no law that I can tell from your post and so the LEO had to assume that he was carrying legally. Just because an escapedmass murderer is walking down the street with 5 guns strapped to his sidethe police have no right to stop or question him unless they either recognize him or he is openlybreaking some law besides carrying a gun as long as he is carrying the guns in a manner that would be legal in the jurisdiction.

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    PT111 is exactly right.

    We cannot have it both ways people.

    New Mexico is an open carry state.

    It is not a crime.

    A double edge sword cuts both ways.

    The cops cannot stop someone for openly carrying a gun just because you don't like the looks of them.

    If that is the case then we all could be stopped because we are all different and someone is bound to not like our looks.

    With freedom there are always risks.


    Tarzan

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    Actually in New Mexico, you can't open carry in ANYbusiness that sells alcohol. Does not matter if it is for consumption on or off the property. Can't do it. Most Wal-Marts here in NM now sell alcohol.

    CC, yes you can carry into a business that sells alcohol for off property consumption, but it sounds like this old boy couldn't legally have a concealed carry permit.


    So in this case, YES it was a crime. He was open carrying in a placehe wasn't supposed to, or he was criminal carrying concealed....



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    The question here is not was he doing anything illegal but that the LEO said that carrying a gun was not illegal. If Charles Manson is walking down the streets of Fairfax, VAopenly carrying two Glock 18's and a fully automatic AR-15 the police have no right or duty to stop him if he is not breaking any other law. Now if a LEO says he looks like Charles Manson he still has no right to stop and question him unless he has heard that Charles Manson has escaped from prison. If the LEOshould stopand ask his name and he replies that it is George Bush then the LEO has no right to detain him and must let him go. At least that if the way I understand it from reading this board.

    The fact that he is carrying three illegal weapons does not enter into the picture unless the 18 on the Glocks is not covered up and the LEO can read it or Charles actually pulls the gun out of the holsters and points it at someone.

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    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.

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    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    I understand what you are saying, but again open carry is very legal and very common in New Mexico. If it applies to one it should apply to all. If you are open carrying do you want him to detain you and question you, just because he can?

    If a cop wanted to follow you around all day, he could probably detain and even arrest you multiple times.

    Again we can't have it both ways. We complain a lot about LE being to uneven in enforcing the law.

    We can't have it so they let the law slide when it suits US and enforce it when it doesn't

    Have you ever exceeded the speed limit, changed lanes without signaling, rolled through a stop sign or some other "minor" infraction of the law.

    I have and have andbeen seen by LE doing it and yet they let it slide. I was happy.

    Actually I am glad that there are LEO 's in New Mexico who see the big picture and save their energy for the real bad guys.



    Tarzan

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    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

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    He was in Wal Mart, they sell alcohol, therefore not legal for open carry.

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    No obviously I wouldn't put out an ABP, however common sense should come into play here, I have seen dropped guns go off, just what need to help further our cause. I am sorry, I am just a little suspicious of someone carrying concealed, Mexican style in droopy drawers, look like a coyote, act like a coyote, I'm going to think you are a coyote.PT111 wrote:
    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

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    PT111 wrote:
    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

    That action alone would be enough reasonable suspicionto makecontact. LEOs can make contact with anyone and require them to identify themselves. That has been upheld many times. For example, it is not illegal to park in an alley at night, but let a leo find you there and he will certainly make contact and probably ask for ID, which he can do.

    If you drop your weapon in public, the worst thing you can do is grab it and run. That implies it was not an honest accident, but that you were breaking some law. That is called reasonable suspicion that a criminal act was in progress and allows for contact.

    I agree that LEOs can not and should not stop you simply for OCing in an OC state without reasonable cause, but dropping your weapon in a public place is a danger to the public and when he grabbed it up and ran out of the store, this said he was probably guilty of something worse. Even if he were a model citizen, we all have a duty to properly secure our weapons when we carry and failure to do so is enough reason to make contact to determine how the incident occurred. If it were an honest malfunction of a holster or such, then let it go. If it was because the person wascarrying the weapon in a poorly secured manner, then he at least needs some encouragement regarding properly securing it in the future for safety reasons.

    Just my take on it.

    Doc


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    DocNTexas wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

    That action alone would be enough reasonable suspicionto makecontact. LEOs can make contact with anyone and require them to identify themselves. That has been upheld many times. For example, it is not illegal to park in an alley at night, but let a leo find you there and he will certainly make contact and probably ask for ID, which he can do.

    If you drop your weapon in public, the worst thing you can do is grab it and run. That implies it was not an honest accident, but that you were breaking some law. That is called reasonable suspicion that a criminal act was in progress and allows for contact.

    I agree that LEOs can not and should not stop you simply for OCing in an OC state without reasonable cause, but dropping your weapon in a public place is a danger to the public and when he grabbed it up and ran out of the store, this said he was probably guilty of something worse. Even if he were a model citizen, we all have a duty to properly secure our weapons when we carry and failure to do so is enough reason to make contact to determine how the incident occurred. If it were an honest malfunction of a holster or such, then let it go. If it was because the person wascarrying the weapon in a poorly secured manner, then he at least needs some encouragement regarding properly securing it in the future for safety reasons.

    Just my take on it.

    Doc
    I agree fully with your reasonable cause to stop and question the suspect. However the suspect had long gone before the LEO arrived. How was he supposed to ask for a pemit, instruct him on safety or anything else if he was already gone. That was the problem. Unless the LEO had chased him down, put out an APB on him or similar he had no way to check to see if he was legal or not. The officer simply informed the panicing customer that carrying a gun was not illegal, nothing else. In the OP it was said that LATER they found out that he was a felon and could not legally carry a gun. Why didn't that person come forward immediately rather than waiting until the trail was cold.

    If it had been a legal CC permit holder that had dropped the gun what would you have expected the LEO to do. If the LEO had gone over and demanded ID and given him a hard time the folks on this board would be all over the LEO. Everyone is talking about OC being illegal there so suppose the LEO had charged him with illegal OC for exposing his gun. Now this board would be in an uproar. Around here the LEO cannot win.

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    PT, that was well said.

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    PT111 wrote:
    DocNTexas wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

    That action alone would be enough reasonable suspicionto makecontact. LEOs can make contact with anyone and require them to identify themselves. That has been upheld many times. For example, it is not illegal to park in an alley at night, but let a leo find you there and he will certainly make contact and probably ask for ID, which he can do.

    If you drop your weapon in public, the worst thing you can do is grab it and run. That implies it was not an honest accident, but that you were breaking some law. That is called reasonable suspicion that a criminal act was in progress and allows for contact.

    I agree that LEOs can not and should not stop you simply for OCing in an OC state without reasonable cause, but dropping your weapon in a public place is a danger to the public and when he grabbed it up and ran out of the store, this said he was probably guilty of something worse. Even if he were a model citizen, we all have a duty to properly secure our weapons when we carry and failure to do so is enough reason to make contact to determine how the incident occurred. If it were an honest malfunction of a holster or such, then let it go. If it was because the person wascarrying the weapon in a poorly secured manner, then he at least needs some encouragement regarding properly securing it in the future for safety reasons.

    Just my take on it.

    Doc
    I agree fully with your reasonable cause to stop and question the suspect. However the suspect had long gone before the LEO arrived. How was he supposed to ask for a pemit, instruct him on safety or anything else if he was already gone. That was the problem. Unless the LEO had chased him down, put out an APB on him or similar he had no way to check to see if he was legal or not. The officer simply informed the panicing customer that carrying a gun was not illegal, nothing else. In the OP it was said that LATER they found out that he was a felon and could not legally carry a gun. Why didn't that person come forward immediately rather than waiting until the trail was cold.

    If it had been a legal CC permit holder that had dropped the gun what would you have expected the LEO to do. If the LEO had gone over and demanded ID and given him a hard time the folks on this board would be all over the LEO. Everyone is talking about OC being illegal there so suppose the LEO had charged him with illegal OC for exposing his gun. Now this board would be in an uproar. Around here the LEO cannot win.
    I agree that some on this board would be in an uproar either way (you can never please everyone) but I do not believe that to be the case for themajority. As most have pointed out here, OCing is illegal in Walmart and until the law is changed (which I totally support and hope to see some day) it should not be done. In this case, the guy was not OCing, which meant he was eithera legal CC holder who suffered a loss of control of his weapon or he was an illegal carrier, indicated by his actions and later by witnesses.

    I agree that the police should not put up roadblocks and door to door searches, but an investigation to identify if possible, a watch in the area for the suspects vehicle if identified, and even followup contact if the guy was identified are all routine actions that could be done and should be expected. Once you know an identified felon is identified carrying a weapon, effort to contact should be made and if he is found to be carrying, he should be charged with such.

    You are correct that the police will probably never address the issue again. It is too low on the priority list and they have too many more pressing things to worry about. The guy in this case is lucky and so are the people in the area when he dropped his weapon. The point I disagree with you on is theidea that the police have no right to question the guy for dropping the weapon in the first place, which is the way I read your post. The question of what the police can do and what they are ultimatelyable to do are two separate issues. In reading your posts, I get the impression that you tend to view the policein a reactive role only, meaning that a clearly obvious crime must occur before they can react, detain or even question someone about their actions. I believe they have a duty to react in a preventive role, as well, when reasonable suspicion exists, and through proper investigation, determine if a crime did occur or was in the process of occurring. (If I have misunderstood your position or views, I apologize, but that was the way I read it and the point I was making.) I agree that this does not giveLEOs exclusive right to harass anyone carrying a weapon merely on sight, but where reasonable suspicion exists, I have no problem with reasonable questioning to determine the facts.

    No one is a greater supporter for the right to carry than I am and I strongly oppose the idea that an officer can stop and question you simply for exercising your right to carry or perform any unreasonable or unwarranted act just because they want to, but I have no problem with any action that is based on reasonable suspicion. Let me offer the following example; it is common practice during traffic stops for LEOs to ask permission tosearch the personsvehicle. The idea being thatcriminals will often say yes in order to not look suspicious and that the more vehicles they search the more violations they will find, withan aim toward drug violations. If you say no, they usually give you the "what do you have to hide" line of questions. On the few occasions Ihave beenasked my response is always the same..."if you can give me a legitimate reason why you feel you need to search my vehicle, I will allow it". Their responses vary somewhat, but in most cases they simple drop the issue and let me go on my way. In short, I support their right to reasonable actions but not for fishing trips or outright harassment. On this, we totally agree.

    Take care,

    Doc



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    DocNTexas wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

    That action alone would be enough reasonable suspicionto makecontact. LEOs can make contact with anyone and require them to identify themselves. That has been upheld many times. For example, it is not illegal to park in an alley at night, but let a leo find you there and he will certainly make contact and probably ask for ID, which he can do.

    If you drop your weapon in public, the worst thing you can do is grab it and run. That implies it was not an honest accident, but that you were breaking some law. That is called reasonable suspicion that a criminal act was in progress and allows for contact.

    I agree that LEOs can not and should not stop you simply for OCing in an OC state without reasonable cause, but dropping your weapon in a public place is a danger to the public and when he grabbed it up and ran out of the store, this said he was probably guilty of something worse. Even if he were a model citizen, we all have a duty to properly secure our weapons when we carry and failure to do so is enough reason to make contact to determine how the incident occurred. If it were an honest malfunction of a holster or such, then let it go. If it was because the person wascarrying the weapon in a poorly secured manner, then he at least needs some encouragement regarding properly securing it in the future for safety reasons.

    Just my take on it.

    Doc
    I agree. That he dropped the piece and then ran away, it having been concealed, would be reason for the cops to question him--IF they saw him. Failing that, I think the police acted correctly. Personally, someone that drops a loaded handgun shouldn't have one. And, at least in two states that I've lived in, this would be at least a violation under "creating a hazardous situation" statutes. Acting under reckless disregard for public safety is illegal.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Gunslinger wrote:
    DocNTexas wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    Desert Dweller wrote:
    "Dropped his gun", at the very least they have an obligation to mention something about firearms safety, and having a gun in the open in Wal Mart, which sells alcohol is illegal in New Mexico. The police did have probable cause to at least ask the individual to identify himself, and to see his CC permit, as I am pretty sure stuff like this is covered in the training required for a CC permit, he would have had to give them a name and a valid address. I am all for the police not overstepping their boundries, but I do want them to do the job I pay them for.
    As I understand the OP the guy's gun fell out of his pants while doing a Mexican carry which would have been a concealed carry. It fell on the floor and the guy picked it up and ran which I probably would have aslo done out of embarassment.The police were then called and showed up after the guys were gone. How were they supposed to ask for a CC permit if they were already gone? The person reporting it said that the guys had a gun and dropped it, the LEO said carrying a gun was legal. Was he supposed to put out and APB on the guy with a gun just to check to see if he had a CC permit?

    That action alone would be enough reasonable suspicionto makecontact. LEOs can make contact with anyone and require them to identify themselves. That has been upheld many times. For example, it is not illegal to park in an alley at night, but let a leo find you there and he will certainly make contact and probably ask for ID, which he can do.

    If you drop your weapon in public, the worst thing you can do is grab it and run. That implies it was not an honest accident, but that you were breaking some law. That is called reasonable suspicion that a criminal act was in progress and allows for contact.

    I agree that LEOs can not and should not stop you simply for OCing in an OC state without reasonable cause, but dropping your weapon in a public place is a danger to the public and when he grabbed it up and ran out of the store, this said he was probably guilty of something worse. Even if he were a model citizen, we all have a duty to properly secure our weapons when we carry and failure to do so is enough reason to make contact to determine how the incident occurred. If it were an honest malfunction of a holster or such, then let it go. If it was because the person wascarrying the weapon in a poorly secured manner, then he at least needs some encouragement regarding properly securing it in the future for safety reasons.

    Just my take on it.

    Doc
    I agree. That he dropped the piece and then ran away, it having been concealed, would be reason for the cops to question him--IF they saw him. Failing that, I think the police acted correctly. Personally, someone that drops a loaded handgun shouldn't have one. And, at least in two states that I've lived in, this would be at least a violation under "creating a hazardous situation" statutes. Acting under reckless disregard for public safety is illegal.
    I agree with you that there was littlethe police could do to the guy unless they actually caught him with the weapon on him. My point was not that the officers should have tracked him down and arrested him on sight, but that they should not have brushed the incident off as not warranting their attention (as it was reported in the OP that the officer did). I merely feel that due to the facts surrounding this incident (the suspicious actions of the guy), this was certainly an incident that warranted reporting;that the officer should have taken it seriously,performed a reasonable investigation, andtaken reasonable action to address and followup on the event.

    Bare in mind that I am merely addressing the event from the standpoint that the officers attitudeandactions were actually asreported in the OP. Being a second-hand report (as all discussions on here are), I actually give benefit of doubt to the officer and all parties involved that they actually acted appropriately and perhaps there was merely some misunderstanding involved between the caller and the officer.

    Myunderstanding of the point being addressed inthe original post was that of the officers attitude toward the event notwarranting their attention. If we only called the police for things that had a high probability of producing aconviction, then there would be few things to report. Most burglaries are never prosecuted, but we report them all the same. Likewise, the first job of an officer is to determine if a crime actually occurred through a proper investigation. My point was merely that this was in fact an incident that warranted reporting and that a reasonable effort should be made to identify the individual and to locate the person for the purpose of appropriately investigating the incident. If they had sufficient information to locate the guy (name or license plate number) or if they were fortunate enough to find him walking down the street a few blocks away (there are stupid criminals out there), them make contact and followup. If the guy is found to be carrying an illegal weapon, act on that. If not, well they did all they could do. This was the point I was trying to make.

    We totally agree on the rest.

    Doc

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