Any idea what this is all about?

joeroket · May 14, 2008

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

BB62 wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

No, they trespass you to make you leave the premises. The gun may be their reason but it is irrelevant because there is no crime of possession, you are legal to be carrying, just that the owner/manager is a jackass and doesn't want to respect you rights per the 2A and the State Constitution.

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If this were the case, then they could trespass one for any reason, anyplace onpublic property- which I wonder if the court would support?

No one has specifically addressed it, but it seems thatthe court's ruling only applies specifically to the matter at issue in the case referenced above - right?

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Every business now have signs that say "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Which means if they tell you to leave, no reason given, you had better go because you will be charged with trespass. Public property is a different ball game with different rules set down by law, usually meaning you can't be trespassed except for breaking a law.

Bear I think you are confused. We are talking about being trespassed from public property, not property open to the public like a business. The trespass that you are talking about I completely agree with you because it is private property. Wa. however has a legal defense to a trespass charge written into the RCW's that it is a defense if you complied with all lawful requirements to enter and it was opne to the general public.

heresolong · May 14, 2008

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joeroket wrote:

Wa. however has a legal defense to a trespass charge written into the RCW's that it is a defense if you complied with all lawful requirements to enter and it was opne to the general public.

Could you cite the RCW for us? This seems to relate to a question on another thread as to whether a sign constitutes a trespass notice.

Agent 47 · May 14, 2008

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heresolong wrote:

joeroket wrote:

Wa. however has a legal defense to a trespass charge written into the RCW's that it is a defense if you complied with all lawful requirements to enter and it was opne to the general public.

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Could you cite the RCW for us? This seems to relate to a question on another thread as to whether a sign constitutes a trespass notice.

RCW 9A.52.090
Criminal trespass — Defenses.

[/b]In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

(1) A building involved in an offense under RCW 9A.52.070 was abandoned; or

(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

(3) The actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain; or

(4) The actor was attempting to serve legal process which includes any document required or allowed to be served upon persons or property, by any statute, rule, ordinance, regulation, or court order, excluding delivery by the mails of the United States. This defense applies only if the actor did not enter into a private residence or other building not open to the public and the entry onto the premises was reasonable and necessary for service of the legal process.

joeroket · May 14, 2008

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heresolong wrote:

joeroket wrote:

Wa. however has a legal defense to a trespass charge written into the RCW's that it is a defense if you complied with all lawful requirements to enter and it was opne to the general public.

Click to expand...

Could you cite the RCW for us? This seems to relate to a question on another thread as to whether a sign constitutes a trespass notice.

Thanks for catching the RCW Agent47.

Heresolong, a posting of a no trespassing sign is the only sign I know of that is valid, providing it has behavior that is construed as trespassing listed on it, because you have been notified by the signage. All other signs, to my knowledge are just a notice but not notification of trespassing.

heresolong · May 14, 2008

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joeroket wrote:

heresolong wrote:

Could you cite the RCW for us? This seems to relate to a question on another thread as to whether a sign constitutes a trespass notice.

Click to expand...

Thanks for catching the RCW Agent47.

Heresolong, a posting of a no trespassing sign is the only sign I know of that is valid, providing it has behavior that is construed as trespassing listed on it, because you have been notified by the signage. All other signs, to my knowledge are just a notice but not notification of trespassing.

So for example a sign that said "Entering these premises with a firearm is considered trespassing" would be legitimate, a sign that says "No firearms allowed" is not?

joeroket · May 14, 2008

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heresolong wrote:

joeroket wrote:

heresolong wrote:

Could you cite the RCW for us? This seems to relate to a question on another thread as to whether a sign constitutes a trespass notice.

Click to expand...

Thanks for catching the RCW Agent47.

Heresolong, a posting of a no trespassing sign is the only sign I know of that is valid, providing it has behavior that is construed as trespassing listed on it, because you have been notified by the signage. All other signs, to my knowledge are just a notice but not notification of trespassing.

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So for example a sign that said "Entering these premises with a firearm is considered trespassing" would be legitimate, a sign that says "No firearms allowed" is not?

That is my understanding. I have talked to a few officers about trespassing and thier training on it is that the sign must state no trespassing and give acts that consitute trespassing. This is not to say that you won't find an officer or prosecutor that thinks differently but I personally have not found one that would arrest if the sign did not state specifics.

BB62 · May 14, 2008

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Now hold on just a second... you have preemption, but a sign can override it by defining trespassing as some act which preemption covers as perfectly legal?

Seems like baloney to me!

joeroket · May 14, 2008

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BB62 wrote:

Now hold on just a second... you have preemption, but a sign can override it by defining trespassing as some act which preemption covers as perfectly legal?

Seems like baloney to me!

Maybe I should have clarified a bit more. If it is private property then signage that lists no trespassing and has specific acts listed is a laawful notice. If it is public property then pre-emption and public trespass laws come into effect.

Mt. Man · Jun 20, 2010

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Agent 47,

You seem like an informed guy. I have one for you.

We live in rural King County, WA. state,on 10 acres. We have a neighbor that is trespassing across the corner of our land to get to their home. The easement on title says that the property they bought had a "floating easment" across our land, basicaly any way they could get to the land beyound us, until the property was sold or developed. Both have happened. Now that the property has been bought and developed the titled easement says their easement needs to be on the property line, about 200' from where they are driving across our land and using our personal driveway.

I first explained and sent copies of the easement being very polite. They left me a nasty message saying they could go right through the middle of our F--ken building site if they wanted to. We then contacted our title company who offered to spend $13K to install a road on the easment for them to avoid going to court. They refused the offer. We went around and around for 3 1/2 years and the title company spent $70k trying to create a settlement. Recently the title company dropped our claim, just before going to court, saying the easment was excluded from the policy due to the "Floating Easement" language not being detailed enough. Now we have to dismiss the suit because we can't aford trial out of our own pocket.

Here's the question; Once the suit is dropped I'm thinking about placing some large bolders on the property line to stop the trespass. We have long had up no trespassing signs and they keep driving past them. What do you think would happen if I post a warning at the edge of the property saying "This access will be blocked in one year. Please find an alternate route." One year should give them time to get permits and build their own road. I haven't bothered calling the sheriff because they would just tell them they had an easement. However, it is 2nd degree trespassing.

Got any ideas at all?

Grapeshot · Jun 20, 2010

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Mt. Man wrote:

Agent 47,

You seem like an informed guy. I have one for you.

We live in rural King County, WA. state,on 10 acres. We have a neighbor that is trespassing across the corner of our land to get to their home. The easement on title says that the property they bought had a "floating easment" across our land, basicaly any way they could get to the land beyound us, until the property was sold or developed. Both have happened. Now that the property has been bought and developed the titled easement says their easement needs to be on the property line, about 200' from where they are driving across our land and using our personal driveway.

I first explained and sent copies of the easement being very polite. They left me a nasty message saying they could go right through the middle of our F--ken building site if they wanted to. We then contacted our title company who offered to spend $13K to install a road on the easment for them to avoid going to court. They refused the offer. We went around and around for 3 1/2 years and the title company spent $70k trying to create a settlement. Recently the title company dropped our claim, just before going to court, saying the easment was excluded from the policy due to the "Floating Easement" language not being detailed enough. Now we have to dismiss the suit because we can't aford trial out of our own pocket.

Here's the question; Once the suit is dropped I'm thinking about placing some large bolders on the property line to stop the trespass. We have long had up no trespassing signs and they keep driving past them. What do you think would happen if I post a warning at the edge of the property saying "This access will be blocked in one year. Please find an alternate route." One year should give them time to get permits and build their own road. I haven't bothered calling the sheriff because they would just tell them they had an easement. However, it is 2nd degree trespassing.

Got any ideas at all?

How is this related to open carry?
There are more appropriate forums for this IMO.

Please, review rules - particularly #2
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

Yata hey

Mt. Man · Jun 20, 2010

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Agent 47 seems like he might know alternitives to defending my property at gun point. I like the idea of using the law instead of my shot gun or 357. I could go down to the road and hang out with my shot gun, but putting rocks in the road seemed like abetter idea. I'd like to avoid using a gun to protect my property if a rock will due. Considerit preventive information. Actually, I'm new here and thought the post would go directly to him, but I guess it wound up on the form. None the less, still looking for ideas. I'd hate to wind up in jail for threatening my neghbor to stay off my land at gun point. I'm trying to research my rights and options. That's how I found this form.

911Boss · Jun 20, 2010

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Defending your property using deadly force against a potential trespasser is rarely a good idea.

This is a civil issue,not a criminal one. If you can't afford a civil lawyer, how can you afford a criminal one after you do something stupid?

This for your first posts? Smells a little trollish to me.

Grapeshot · Jun 20, 2010

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Mt. Man wrote:

Agent 47 seems like he might know alternitives to defending my property at gun point. I like the idea of using the law instead of my shot gun or 357. I could go down to the road and hang out with my shot gun, but putting rocks in the road seemed like abetter idea. I'd like to avoid using a gun to protect my property if a rock will due. Considerit preventive information. Actually, I'm new here and thought the post would go directly to him, but I guess it wound up on the form. None the less, still looking for ideas. I'd hate to wind up in jail for threatening my neghbor to stay off my land at gun point. I'm trying to research my rights and options. That's how I found this form.

A private message (PM) can be sent to any poster by clicking on their screen name and following the prompts.

Yata hey

Son_of_Perdition · Jun 20, 2010

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Here's the question; Once the suit is dropped I'm thinking about placing some large bolders on the property line to stop the trespass. We have long had up no trespassing signs and they keep driving past them. What do you think would happen if I post a warning at the edge of the property saying "This access will be blocked in one year. Please find an alternate route." One year should give them time to get permits and build their own road. I haven't bothered calling the sheriff because they would just tell them they had an easement. However, it is 2nd degree trespassing.

Floating easement

A floating easement exists when there is no fixed location, route, method, or limit to the right of way.[1][2][3] For example, a right of way may cross a field, without any visible path, or allow egress through another building for fire safety purposes. A floating easement may be public or private, appurtenant or in gross.[4]

One case defined it as: "(an) easement defined in general terms, without a definite location or description, is called a floating or roving easement...

For starters, A Sheriff will not get involved If you call or if they call. They will just tell you that it is a civil matter. So don't worry about that. No one is getting a ticket or going to jail over this one. If the wordage of the easement is the way you say it is, then you need to turn the problem onto them. You are trying to get them to stop driving on your land and they believe they have a never ending easement threw yours and do not need to abide by the wordage as defined in the easement. Make the problem something they would have to fight for. And the only thing they could win out of the deal is to get what is in writing already.

I am not responsible for your actions but what I would do is rent a big excavator and dig an enormous ditch along side their property line on your side and create a ditch and burm. You could call it your new pond or creative landscaping feature. Be mind full of all the utility and water lines. You can get a free locate from the power/cable/phone companies. Big boulders can work but can be moved out of the way fairly easy. Also with boulders it would be fairly obvious in photographs that you are trying to block an existing path. Use the excavator to clear a basic cat trail at the edge of the property line where the driveway should be. Don't bother going off your property. That is something you don't want to do. I only mention this so that the only realistic way for them to establish a new driveway would be to use this new path. Keep in mind that this is your land. Don't feel bad about completely raping it. Existing easements can hold up in court but not if they don't exist. Remove all existence of the driveway from yours to theirs. They would not have anything to fight for other then the written property line easement.

Now sit back and enjoy the sweet taste of vengeance. What could they really do. sue you for something that doesn't belong to them. their property line easement is wide open and they are responsible for its improvments.

joeroket · Jun 20, 2010

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Mt. Man wrote:

Agent 47 seems like he might know alternitives to defending my property at gun point. I like the idea of using the law instead of my shot gun or 357. I could go down to the road and hang out with my shot gun, but putting rocks in the road seemed like a better idea. I'd like to avoid using a gun to protect my property if a rock will due. Consider it preventive information. Actually, I'm new here and thought the post would go directly to him, but I guess it wound up on the form. None the less, still looking for ideas. I'd hate to wind up in jail for threatening my neghbor to stay off my land at gun point. I'm trying to research my rights and options. That's how I found this form.

If you threaten your neighbor with a firearm because he is supposedly trespassing, I say this because there is it is not solved yet, you will find yourself in county jail. Do not do it. You need to take car of this in civil court, the filing fee is minimal. If you have the legal argument to back your claim up then by all means try and argue it your self. If not and you cannot afford an attorney have you thought about fencing the area off. This way if your neighbor damages the fence you have a criminal issue to pursue and can potentially get a restraining order that will keep him off the property.

Property easement rights are rarely easy to solve and usually end up with attorneys and judges deciding the legality of the title contracts.

Agent 47 · Jun 20, 2010

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WOW! post dredging at its finest, brings back fond memories. I research a lot of laws that partain to gun carry here in washington butI am cirtialy no expert on them let alone the conveluted quagmire that is property rights law.

Trigger Dr · Jun 20, 2010

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This is also an Easement by Prescription. An easement by prescription is gained through Open, Continuous, Hostile use for a period of 10 years. This grants the non possessory right of use.

The person attempting to get the easement must be able to document, open use (use with no attempt at concealing the use) Continous use, (use with no attempt to conceal the use) Hostile Use ( hostile use is the use against the wishes of the property owner and does not need to have an act of a hostile nature)

By granting permission of use BEFORE the 10 year requirement is reached, you have effectively cancelled the easement by prescription and they must start the entire process again.

IANAL , but just went through this and gained prescriptive easements on two parcels of land.

edit to spell check

Any idea what this is all about?

joeroket

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heresolong

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Agent 47

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joeroket

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heresolong

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joeroket

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BB62

Accomplished Advocate

joeroket

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Mt. Man

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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

Mt. Man

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911Boss

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Grapeshot

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Son_of_Perdition

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joeroket

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Agent 47

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Trigger Dr

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