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Thread: Ignorance at Orem Gunnies

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Went to the Orem Gunnies today to get a closer view of the SA XDs so that I could make a decision regarding size, when I do get the money to buy it, anyway, I signed in at the cash register, as per their posted policy, then went back to the gun counter. The guy who helped me was a guy who I had known to work at the American Fork Cal-ranch. When I was looking at the XDs, which by the way, I have decided on a .40 S&W Service model in OD. anyway I asked if it was okay that I compare the size of my S&W Model 10 to the service model, he asked me if it was unloaded and I said that it was. When I had it next to the XD he picked my model 10 up as if to examine it, which i had no problem with. He swung out the cylinder and says to me " This is loaded! " Too which I respond, according to state law it is. Then, as he knows who I am, and that I'm not 21, he says that I'm not supposed to even possess a handgun, at which point I'm slightly annoyed, and I tell him to give it back to me. he reluctantly hands it back to me and I proceed to try and educate him on the law. He responds by grabbing a copy of Mitch Vilos book about utah gun law. While flipping through the book he tells me that OC is illegal, inviting trouble, that the LEO's could arrest me on a "Disturbing the peace" charge if anybody felt uncomfortable or threatened, and that Orem had some OC restriction in place. Then he stops on a page in the book, says "There it says right there." Then when I ask to see, he closes the book and puts it behind the counter. He refuses to change his mind despite me knowing not only the laws but the code numbers of those laws. Then I go back to the area where they keep there books, pick up the same book and proceed to tear apart his "laws" which were all bogus according to that book. He threatens to kick me out of the store, and I say that I won't be shopping there again. Tommorrow I'm calling and speaking with a manager about the situation. Their policy is that if you carry in the store, that you sign in at the register. All you have to do is fill out the model, caliber, make, then sign your name. Seems decently reasonable to me. As long as they're not busy, I have no problem with that policy. I'm just really annoyed about how stubborn he was. Even when proved wrong beyond a doubt, he still persisted. There's a line between passionate and just stupid. He crossed it. Anyone wanna go to Gunnies?

    PVT McDonald

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    Interesting...a couple of buds and myself were in there today as well. Now I do know they had a "new guy" (his first day) working there and two other clerks that I've seen and been helped by before. The older clerk did seem to be irritated to me. I wonder if he was the one that gave you so much grief?

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Went to the Orem Gunnies today to get a closer view of the SA XDs so that I could make a decision regarding size, when I do get the money to buy it, anyway, I signed in at the cash register, as per their posted policy, then went back to the gun counter. The guy who helped me was a guy who I had known to work at the American Fork Cal-ranch. When I was looking at the XDs, which by the way, I have decided on a .40 S&W Service model in OD. anyway I asked if it was okay that I compare the size of my S&W Model 10 to the service model, he asked me if it was unloaded and I said that it was. When I had it next to the XD he picked my model 10 up as if to examine it, which i had no problem with. He swung out the cylinder and says to me " This is loaded! " Too which I respond, according to state law it is. Then, as he knows who I am, and that I'm not 21, he says that I'm not supposed to even possess a handgun, at which point I'm slightly annoyed, and I tell him to give it back to me. he reluctantly hands it back to me and I proceed to try and educate him on the law. He responds by grabbing a copy of Mitch Vilos book about utah gun law. While flipping through the book he tells me that OC is illegal, inviting trouble, that the LEO's could arrest me on a "Disturbing the peace" charge if anybody felt uncomfortable or threatened, and that Orem had some OC restriction in place. Then he stops on a page in the book, says "There it says right there." Then when I ask to see, he closes the book and puts it behind the counter. He refuses to change his mind despite me knowing not only the laws but the code numbers of those laws. Then I go back to the area where they keep there books, pick up the same book and proceed to tear apart his "laws" which were all bogus according to that book. He threatens to kick me out of the store, and I say that I won't be shopping there again. Tommorrow I'm calling and speaking with a manager about the situation. Their policy is that if you carry in the store, that you sign in at the register. All you have to do is fill out the model, caliber, make, then sign your name. Seems decently reasonable to me. As long as they're not busy, I have no problem with that policy. I'm just really annoyed about how stubborn he was. Even when proved wrong beyond a doubt, he still persisted. There's a line between passionate and just stupid. He crossed it. Anyone wanna go to Gunnies?

    PVT McDonald
    Well, show him this, Political activism and OCing especially the pics. SGTJensen and I OCed at the GOP Convention which was held at.....yes you guessed it UVU.

    If he says anything tell him that the AG, Mark Shurtleff, was there to correct the officers and said that we were 100% ok to OC.

    The city can try to make their own gun laws as much as they want but are WORTH...NOTHING due to...

    76-10-500. Uniform law.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.


  4. #4
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    You do NOT need to sign in, or check you firearm to open carry at Gunnies. This only applies if you plan on removing your sidearm for service or trade. I open carry there all the time, and have never had an issue.

    One rule to remember... Keep your sidearm holstered. You said you removed it to compare sizes and set it down, at which point the sales person picked it up. Bad move, this is where negligent discharges come from.

    Also, you stated that he said "This is loaded" to which you replied according to state law it is. Is this true? I am not criticizing, just want to get the facts straight. According to Utah law, persons without a Concealed Firearm Permit may not carry a loaded firearm. I just don't want to see you get in trouble.

    Remember, keep it holstered, don't sign in. Unless you plan on removing it for something.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    thx997303 wrote:
    I signed in at the cash register, as per their posted policy, then went back to the gun counter. All you have to do is fill out the model, caliber, make, then sign your name.

    PVT McDonald
    WOW! What a crappy policy. Granted, it is their right to have such a policy, but there is NO WAY I would do something like that. Why do they need a register of who carries into their store? This is some dumb-bass idea - like anyone who is going to commit a crime would actually sign the log. Duh. Why do they need to know what you are carrying? Are they selling information to marketers?

    I would never shop at a store that had policies reminicent of democratic liberal gun haters.

    Sorry about your experience, definitely tell them about it and that you won't be back... I've never been there, but they just lost my business forever (and I have a loud mouth... who knows how far this will go).

    UPDATE: SGT Jensen posted while I wrote this. I still think this is a stupid policy, and I still won't shop at Gunnies, I will only patronize a business that treats me with respect - obviously this place doesn't make the cut.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    It was the new guy. He used to work at Cal-Ranch. That's how he knew I wasn't 21. And as far as keeping it holstered, I agree. I won't remove it to compare to anything, or even to test fit holsters, not worth the hassle. And yes it was unloaded. He has mounted a scope to my M91/30, and I have talked with him before. It just gets me that even after he proved himself wrong, he then tried to hide the fact, and the source of the facts. I don't think that he knew there was another copy of the book.

    Though I did first ask him if he would be comfortable with me comparing the size. I would not have removed it otherwise. New personal policy, never remove it in a store.

    PVT McDonald

    Edit: The only reason I signed in is because I did plan on comparing it to the size of my S&W Model 10-7. I don't want to carry anything larger.

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    if i was ever arrested for disturbing the peace, i would sue for the officer impeding my born RIGHT. thats like a cop arresting someone for speaking his mind, you cant arrest someone just cause they offend somebody, ive been told lots of things that annoyed and offended me, but thats their right, and i use mine while they use theirs also

    cant sleep, too excited about tomarrow

    plus my ears hurt from stretching them lol

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    you gonna make it blacksmith? I'd like to talk to you about getting the maine permit for my wife.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    i mean to the meeting.

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    I hate to be the devil's advocate...

    If I worked at a gun counter and I asked if someone's gun was loaded... I was told it was unloaded... Then they proceeded to hand me a gun with any bullets in it (techinically unloaded according to Utah law)... I'd be a little pissed... :shock: I would escort you to the front of the store and tell you not to return, ever with a gun into the store.

    Utah law or otherwise... You don't handle bullets, and guns together at the gun counter.

    Please correct me if Imisunderstood the situation.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Didn't hand him anything. I don't believe he had any right to touch my gun at all. I should have been pissed. Anyway, his customer service skills were atrocious, as agreed by his manager, whom I spoke with today. Keep in mind I acknowledged the mistake that I made, removing the gun from the holster. If I had handed him the gun, I would not have handed it to him with any rounds in around or near it. I never hand anyone a gun with any rounds in it at all. I always check. So I can definitely see your point, If I had HANDED the gun to him then he would have every right to be upset. But I didn't. I made my mistake, which I will not be making again.

    PVT McDonald

    The entire point of my post was his ignorance of the law and his refusal to acknowledge that he was wrong when proven to be.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    you gonna make it blacksmith? I'd like to talk to you about getting the maine permit for my wife.
    i just got my maine permit....it is awesome and easy to get.

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    rocknsnow wrote:
    thx997303 wrote:
    you gonna make it blacksmith? I'd like to talk to you about getting the maine permit for my wife.
    i just got my maine permit....it is awesome and easy to get.
    Congrats:celebrate


    Remember that you still CANNOT enter a school ground with THAT CCW. Clark Aposhian will best answer the question for you. His cell # is 801-560-4836. Talk with BEFORE you decide to CCW on ANY school ground. It's against FEDERAL LAW if the permit is NOT from THIS state in which the school is in.

    Call Clark PLEASE>

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    thx997303 wrote:
    you gonna make it blacksmith? I'd like to talk to you about getting the maine permit for my wife.
    i just got my maine permit....it is awesome and easy to get.
    Congrats:celebrate


    Remember that you still CANNOT enter a school ground with THAT CCW. Clark Aposhian will best answer the question for you. His cell # is 801-560-4836. Talk with BEFORE you decide to CCW on ANY school ground. It's against FEDERAL LAW if the permit is NOT from THIS state in which the school is in.

    Call Clark PLEASE>


    Thanks I had heard that before. I will call him tho. Thanks for the number and the info.

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    thx997303 wrote:
    you gonna make it blacksmith? I'd like to talk to you about getting the maine permit for my wife.
    i just got my maine permit....it is awesome and easy to get.
    Congrats:celebrate


    Remember that you still CANNOT enter a school ground with THAT CCW. Clark Aposhian will best answer the question for you. His cell # is 801-560-4836. Talk with BEFORE you decide to CCW on ANY school ground. It's against FEDERAL LAW if the permit is NOT from THIS state in which the school is in.

    Call Clark PLEASE>
    I had not heard of that.
    Which Federal law states that?

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    rocknsnow wrote:
    thx997303 wrote:
    you gonna make it blacksmith? I'd like to talk to you about getting the maine permit for my wife.
    i just got my maine permit....it is awesome and easy to get.
    Congrats:celebrate


    Remember that you still CANNOT enter a school ground with THAT CCW. Clark Aposhian will best answer the question for you. His cell # is 801-560-4836. Talk with BEFORE you decide to CCW on ANY school ground. It's against FEDERAL LAW if the permit is NOT from THIS state in which the school is in.

    Call Clark PLEASE>
    I had not heard of that.
    Which Federal law states that?

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    18 U.S.C. § 922(q) states this in subsection B, part ii.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

    §922. Unlawful acts

    (2)

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Now, I thought I once heard Clark say that the Federal "Gun Free Zones", by definition, only apply to K-12 schools.

    TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

    §921. Definitions

    (a) (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

    And then the state definitions took it a step further and added more schools, like colleges.

    76-3-203.2. Definitions

    (1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
    (i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
    (ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
    (iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
    (v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).

    So, would an out of state permit be OK for college carry?

    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.

    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:

    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

    §922. Unlawful acts

    (2)

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    Does that mean with a Utah permit if I'm visiting another state, I can't go into a school there?

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

    §922. Unlawful acts

    (2)

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    Does that mean with a Utah permit if I'm visiting another state, I can't go into a school there?
    That is 100% correct. Don't like it myself.

    TJ

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    Yup, you can only enter a school in the state to which you hold a permit. And that is only if the state allows CFP holders to enter a school with a firearm (from what I understand Utah is one of the only states that allows this). If you don't have a permit for the state you are in, federal law kicks in and you are not exempt from that law.

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    Can you just not go into the school, or is it the "School Zone". Does that include public roads in front of the school?

  24. #24
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    It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    The school zone (within 1000 feet of a school).

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    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    Tell me if this is accurate or if theres any case law that says no.

    1. I have a resident Virginia CHP (or will soon).

    2. Michigan recognizes my CHP.

    Therefor, the state of Michigan uses my Virginia CHP to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license" and subsequently license me to carry in a school zone (in my car).

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