Ignorance at Orem Gunnies

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jaredbelch wrote:

SGT Jensen wrote:

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

§922. Unlawful acts

(2)

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

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Does that mean with a Utah permit if I'm visiting another state, I can't go into a school there?

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That is 100% correct. Don't like it myself.:uhoh:

TJ

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Yup, you can only enter a school in the state to which you hold a permit. And that is only if the state allows CFP holders to enter a school with a firearm (from what I understand Utah is one of the only states that allows this). If you don't have a permit for the state you are in, federal law kicks in and you are not exempt from that law.

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Can you just not go into the school, or is it the "School Zone". Does that include public roads in front of the school?

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It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

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The school zone (within 1000 feet of a school).

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(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Tell me if this is accurate or if theres any case law that says no.

1. I have a resident Virginia CHP (or will soon).

2. Michigan recognizes my CHP.

Therefor, the state of Michigan uses my Virginia CHP to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license" and subsequently license me to carry in a school zone (in my car).

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asforme wrote:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Tell me if this is accurate or if theres any case law that says no.

1. I have a resident Virginia CHP (or will soon).

2. Michigan recognizes my CHP.

Therefor, the state of Michigan uses my Virginia CHP to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license" and subsequently license me to carry in a school zone (in my car).

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"Therefor, the state of Michigan uses my Virginia CHP to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license" and subsequently license me to carry in a school zone (in my car)."

No, they don't.

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

No, they don't.

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Source? I wasn't even aware of the School Zone law until recently so I'm not arguing the point, I'm looking for some sources either way. Any case law?

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asforme wrote:

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

No, they don't.

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Source? I wasn't even aware of the School Zone law until recently so I'm not arguing the point, I'm looking for some sources either way. Any case law?

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TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

§922. Unlawful acts

(2)

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;



TJ

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SGT Jensen wrote:

Now, I thought I once heard Clark say that the Federal "Gun Free Zones", by definition, only apply to K-12 schools.

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

§921. Definitions

(a) (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

And then the state definitions took it a step further and added more schools, like colleges.

76-3-203.2. Definitions

(1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
(i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
(ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
(iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
(iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
(v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).

So, would an out of state permit be OK for college carry?

76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.

(2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:

(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county.

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I'm not sure... But I'm probably goingto give Clark or the AG a call on Monday to find out.

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Cadet Higham wrote:

SGT Jensen wrote:

Now, I thought I once heard Clark say that the Federal "Gun Free Zones", by definition, only apply to K-12 schools.

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

§921. Definitions

(a) (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

And then the state definitions took it a step further and added more schools, like colleges.

76-3-203.2. Definitions

(1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
(i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
(ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
(iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
(iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
(v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).

So, would an out of state permit be OK for college carry?

76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.

(2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:

(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county.

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I'm not sure... But I'm probably goingto give Clark or the AG a call on Monday to find out.

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Clark told me so last night as I spoke with him little after 6pm in the evening.

TJ

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State,

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License[size="-1"][*]the act of giving a formal (usually written) authorization [/size]
While the word license when used as a noun can refer to a legal document, in the above sentence it is used as a verb meaning permission. A political subdivision of the state has decided to recognize my out of state CHP and therefor licensed me as an individual to exercise all of the freedoms that their own permit holders have.

If you have some case law or an opinion that says otherwise, please post such information, but I have been unable to find any.

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

It's against FEDERAL LAW if the permit is NOT from THIS state in which the school is in.

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More precisely, it MAY be against federal law. The wording is a little bit unclear and it might be able to be interpreted to require that the permit be from the state the school is in.

Unless you want to be the test case to decide for sure what the wording means, avoid knowingly carrying in K-12 schools without a permit from the state the school is in. As SGT Jensen pointed out, the federal law only prohibits carry in K-12 zones, and the Utah state law which prohibits carry at universities doesn't have the sort of unclear language the federal law does.

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asforme wrote:

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State,

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License[size=-1]
[*]the act of giving a formal (usually written) authorization [/size]
While the word license when used as a noun can refer to a legal document, in the above sentence it is used as a verb meaning permission. A political subdivision of the state has decided to recognize my out of state CHP and therefor licensed me as an individual to exercise all of the freedoms that their own permit holders have.

If you have some case law or an opinion that says otherwise, please post such information, but I have been unable to find any.

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I don't think there is any caselaw. Last I heard, the SCOTUS ruled the first version of this law unconstitutional; so Congress enacted a revised version in 1996 with a little language to try to make it constitutionally "acceptable." I don't think anybody has been charged under it. The collective wisdom being that the gov't knows it won't withstand constitutional challenge. Yet, we know there are plenty of times the gov't will screw around with you just to make you have to fight in court. I don't think I would want to be the test case on this one.

Wiser heads than me are saying the same thing as UTOC-45-44.

Hunt around the web. Maybe check www.gunlaws.com. I seem to recall something there about it.Lookbeyond the gun books section.

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Maybe I have a hint of revolutionary rebellion coursing through my veins, and I feel compelled to find a technical loophole, just to be a troublemaker. Not that I plan to exploit the loophole, but rather to just see if I have indeed found one.

Hear me out and let me know what you think of this theory.

SGT Jensen wrote:

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

§922. Unlawful acts

(2)

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

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I have heard about a source on the internet where you can buy a book describing in detail how to build your own machine gun completely from scratch.

My question is, if you were to change the plans from that book so that the resultant gun was not fully automatic but rather a semi-auto and therefore not subject to the associated tax, and built the silly thing, since said firearm had never moved in interstate or foreign commerce, nor has any effect on interstate or foreign commerce, would said firearm be legal to carry within 1000' of (or even on) school grounds without the CCW permit? As I understand the law, said firearm would be legal to posess, you just could not sell, transfer, or even give it away without a number of requirements, including identification of manufacturer, serial number, etc. Again, the strict question is the legality of carrying said firearm, unloaded by definition of Utah law, on or near school grounds without a CFP?

The things that keep me awake late at night...........

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asforme wrote:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Tell me if this is accurate or if theres any case law that says no.

1. I have a resident Virginia CHP (or will soon).

2. Michigan recognizes my CHP.

Therefor, the state of Michigan uses my Virginia CHP to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license" and subsequently license me to carry in a school zone (in my car).

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Mihas a reciprocity agreement with Va, therefore, when you obtain your CHP you may CC in your vehicle on school property (K-12). Also, you must remain in your vehicle at all times while on the school property, unless you leave the gun in your vehicle. Also, Michigan has the pick up/drop off requirements for being on the school property while CC'ing in your vehicle. I'll cite the source if needed.

Edited for spelling

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So I would like some clarification. College carry ok or not ok with out-of-state permit?

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The best you can do is call Mitch Vilos and ask him. He is an attorney, and will have a better answer than anyone here. 801-295-3340

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Cadet Higham wrote:

So I would like some clarification. College carry ok or not ok with out-of-state permit?

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Talk to an attorney -- as SGT Jensen said, Mitch Vilos is a great choice.

The reason "talk to an attorney" is the answer is because the real answer is unclear. The wording of the federal law MAY be interpreted to mean that out of state permits don't apply. It also MAY be the case that this interpretation is unconstitutional. The law is unclear, there have been no court rulings on it, so the best you can do is to get a qualified legal opinion to help you understand the situation.

If you're rich, squeaky clean and fired up to change the world, maybe you want to be the test case. Otherwise, I strongly suspect that Mitch will tell you it's too risky.

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Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I googled for any court rulings on this issue and came up with nothing, but the people on this board seem to be much better at finding that stuff than I so I wanted to see if anyone else knew of a ruling.

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Colormered:

I like your style, and agree with your logic on the federal side of things, butyou'd still be subject to state laws, which, in UT without a CWP, prohibits carrying in schools.