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Thread: FL - When not to draw

  1. #1
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    I was carrying concealed in Floridaa few years ago and my wife and I were inastore in the local mall when a woman came running in and said "They're robbing the Jewelry store ", which was located just across the mall on the same level. My wife grabbed our infant daughter and took off for the back of the store we were in and I went outto see what was happening. Using an ATM kiosk that was between the stores as cover, I peeked around the corner and saw 2 men in the jeweler's. One had the male manager held up against the wall while the other scooped jewelry into a small cooler. No firearms or other weapons were visible, and no one seemed to be in imminent danger of being seriously hurt. SinceI had no desire to start a gun fight in the mall. I just stayed where I was and watched as they ran past me, then I followed at a distance trying to get a look at their car. They got away, and were eventually (months later) caught and tried for this and several other holdups they had committed.

    My point here is, sometimes you have to act with restraint rather than bull in to a situation. I had my Glock on me, I had a clear field of fire, I had them dead to rights. What I didn't have was justifiable use of deadly force, or a good backstop for my rounds if I fired. My actions (or inaction) cost the jeweler's some money, but nobody was hurt. I explained to PD officers afterwards that it seemed too dangerous to escalate the situation by drawing my weapon. To be sure, my hand was on the grip, but the pistol never exited the holster. I just kept an overwatch on the situation so that, should things deteriorate I was in a position to stop it. It was frustrating to watch them run away without stopping them, but these were two BIG guys and the only way I could have done it is with the Glock.

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    Boomer654 wrote:
    I was carrying concealed in Floridaa few years ago and my wife and I were inastore in the local mall when a woman came running in and said "They're robbing the Jewelry store ", which was located just across the mall on the same level. My wife grabbed our infant daughter and took off for the back of the store we were in and I went outto see what was happening. Using an ATM kiosk that was between the stores as cover, I peeked around the corner and saw 2 men in the jeweler's. One had the male manager held up against the wall while the other scooped jewelry into a small cooler. No firearms or other weapons were visible, and no one seemed to be in imminent danger of being seriously hurt. SinceI had no desire to start a gun fight in the mall. I just stayed where I was and watched as they ran past me, then I followed at a distance trying to get a look at their car. They got away, and were eventually (months later) caught and tried for this and several other holdups they had committed.

    My point here is, sometimes you have to act with restraint rather than bull in to a situation. I had my Glock on me, I had a clear field of fire, I had them dead to rights. What I didn't have was justifiable use of deadly force, or a good backstop for my rounds if I fired. My actions (or inaction) cost the jeweler's some money, but nobody was hurt. I explained to PD officers afterwards that it seemed too dangerous to escalate the situation by drawing my weapon. To be sure, my hand was on the grip, but the pistol never exited the holster. I just kept an overwatch on the situation so that, should things deteriorate I was in a position to stop it. It was frustrating to watch them run away without stopping them, but these were two BIG guys and the only way I could have done it is with the Glock.


    I have decided apriori whetherright or wrong that I will not shoot for strangers, only my family or myself. So I agree with what you did (not). I also will not shoot for property as it is simply not worth it....Technically in AZ, there are situations where you may be justified. Let the cops do the shooting, they have free lawyers.



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    Good Show!

    You did right!

    Sometimes the best thing you can do is stay collected and be prepared to be a good witness.

    Plus, had you used your sidearm, even if completely justified, you'd probably be out 20 large or so for legal fees.

    Restraint is sometimes the better part of courage.

    E


    "Never pick a fight with an old spy. If he doesn't feel like fighting he'll just kill you."

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Boomer654 wrote:
    I was carrying concealed in Floridaa few years ago and my wife and I were inastore in the local mall when a woman came running in and said "They're robbing the Jewelry store ", which was located just across the mall on the same level. My wife grabbed our infant daughter and took off for the back of the store we were in and I went outto see what was happening. Using an ATM kiosk that was between the stores as cover, I peeked around the corner and saw 2 men in the jeweler's. One had the male manager held up against the wall while the other scooped jewelry into a small cooler. No firearms or other weapons were visible, and no one seemed to be in imminent danger of being seriously hurt. SinceI had no desire to start a gun fight in the mall. I just stayed where I was and watched as they ran past me, then I followed at a distance trying to get a look at their car. They got away, and were eventually (months later) caught and tried for this and several other holdups they had committed.

    My point here is, sometimes you have to act with restraint rather than bull in to a situation. I had my Glock on me, I had a clear field of fire, I had them dead to rights. What I didn't have was justifiable use of deadly force, or a good backstop for my rounds if I fired. My actions (or inaction) cost the jeweler's some money, but nobody was hurt. I explained to PD officers afterwards that it seemed too dangerous to escalate the situation by drawing my weapon. To be sure, my hand was on the grip, but the pistol never exited the holster. I just kept an overwatch on the situation so that, should things deteriorate I was in a position to stop it. It was frustrating to watch them run away without stopping them, but these were two BIG guys and the only way I could have done it is with the Glock.
    That it!!

    I hereby sentence you to 80 hours of remedial Mall Ninja training!

    Don't you know that there are mall ninjas all over this nation dying to be in that situation and using their mad tyt3 tacticool skillz to single handedly take out the BGs!!



    Seriously, I would probably have done the same thing. We are not adjunct LEO, we are private citizens who carry for defense against serious bodily injury and death, not to provide public service security. Good evaluation of your limitations in all arenas.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    That it!!

    I hereby sentence you to 80 hours of remedial Mall Ninja training!

    Don't you know that there are mall ninjas all over this nation dying to be in that situation and using their mad tyt3 tacticool skillz to single handedly take out the BGs!!



    Seriously, I would probably have done the same thing. We are not adjunct LEO, we are private citizens who carry for defense against serious bodily injury and death, not to provide public service security. Good evaluation of your limitations in all arenas.
    I KNEW I should have signed up for that extra credit Mall Ninja course! damn!


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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Good show........sometimes the best thing you can do is be a good witness. I would be frustrated to hell in your situation, but I hope I would have reacted the same way, given the circumstances......I could see a prosecutor raking you over the coals for shooting 2 unarmed men......

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    Boomer654 wrote:
    I was carrying concealed in Floridaa few years ago and my wife and I were inastore in the local mall when a woman came running in and said "They're robbing the Jewelry store ", which was located just across the mall on the same level. My wife grabbed our infant daughter and took off for the back of the store we were in and I went outto see what was happening. Using an ATM kiosk that was between the stores as cover, I peeked around the corner and saw 2 men in the jeweler's. One had the male manager held up against the wall while the other scooped jewelry into a small cooler. No firearms or other weapons were visible, and no one seemed to be in imminent danger of being seriously hurt. SinceI had no desire to start a gun fight in the mall. I just stayed where I was and watched as they ran past me, then I followed at a distance trying to get a look at their car. They got away, and were eventually (months later) caught and tried for this and several other holdups they had committed.

    My point here is, sometimes you have to act with restraint rather than bull in to a situation. I had my Glock on me, I had a clear field of fire, I had them dead to rights. What I didn't have was justifiable use of deadly force, or a good backstop for my rounds if I fired. My actions (or inaction) cost the jeweler's some money, but nobody was hurt. I explained to PD officers afterwards that it seemed too dangerous to escalate the situation by drawing my weapon. To be sure, my hand was on the grip, but the pistol never exited the holster. I just kept an overwatch on the situation so that, should things deteriorate I was in a position to stop it. It was frustrating to watch them run away without stopping them, but these were two BIG guys and the only way I could have done it is with the Glock.
    Congratulations. Often, discretion is the better part of valor.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    well done
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Boomer654 wrote:
    I was carrying concealed in Floridaa few years ago and my wife and I were inastore in the local mall when a woman came running in and said "They're robbing the Jewelry store ", which was located just across the mall on the same level. My wife grabbed our infant daughter and took off for the back of the store we were in and I went outto see what was happening. Using an ATM kiosk that was between the stores as cover, I peeked around the corner and saw 2 men in the jeweler's. One had the male manager held up against the wall while the other scooped jewelry into a small cooler. No firearms or other weapons were visible, and no one seemed to be in imminent danger of being seriously hurt. SinceI had no desire to start a gun fight in the mall. I just stayed where I was and watched as they ran past me, then I followed at a distance trying to get a look at their car. They got away, and were eventually (months later) caught and tried for this and several other holdups they had committed.

    My point here is, sometimes you have to act with restraint rather than bull in to a situation. I had my Glock on me, I had a clear field of fire, I had them dead to rights. What I didn't have was justifiable use of deadly force, or a good backstop for my rounds if I fired. My actions (or inaction) cost the jeweler's some money, but nobody was hurt. I explained to PD officers afterwards that it seemed too dangerous to escalate the situation by drawing my weapon. To be sure, my hand was on the grip, but the pistol never exited the holster. I just kept an overwatch on the situation so that, should things deteriorate I was in a position to stop it. It was frustrating to watch them run away without stopping them, but these were two BIG guys and the only way I could have done it is with the Glock.
    In Utah we could have taken out the robbers wether armed or not.....



    76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
    (1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    (2) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if he or she:
    (a) initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
    (b) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
    (c) (i) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force; and
    (ii) for purposes of Subsection (i) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
    (A) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
    (B) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
    (3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(c).
    (4) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6. Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony. Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
    (5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
    (a) the nature of the danger;
    (b) the immediacy of the danger;
    (c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
    (d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
    (e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship.


    Amended by Chapter 26, 1994 General Session


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    Technically, many states allow you to intervene with the threat of deadly force to stop a felony, but does that mean we should always intervene? I don't think so. My main concern is me and my family's lives, and the immediate lives of others around me, jewelry is secondary.. If they were unarmed and beating the guy to death, I would intervene, but not to stop some jewel theives. Being a good witness in that situation is a much better option than getting involved.

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Boomer654 wrote:
    In Utah we could have taken out the robbers wether armed or not.....

    You could in AZ as well. His point was that their was no apparent imminent threat of life and limb. Had he drawn and fired he may have been saving some jewelry from being stolen from a store... butso what?

    I think the OP made a good call. With no immediate threat inan area crowded with civies(sheep), why risk creating one in the form of a gunfight? Bad guys don't care about stray bullets. IMHO the OP chose wisely, maybe even fighting an urge to intervene.(that would be my urge). Boomer chooses restraint, nobody gets hurt, and the bad guys eventually get caught. Nice play, Boomer.

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    Boomer654 wrote:
    ... No firearms or other weapons were visible...

    this was my selling point. Had they been exhibiting aggressive or threatening behavior, I really can't say what I would have done (to be honest), but since there was no such behavior involved, I would have done the exact same thing.

    honestly, since teh lives of myself and my family weren't involved, I may have done teh same thing regardless... you never know until you're in that situation.

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    I am not LEO, nor do I want to be.

    If I ever draw my gun, I will fire.

    I will not draw my gun unless I do so to protect life or limb of myself, my family or an innocent third party.

    I don't have to see a weapon.

    Would I have drawn and fired in this situation? I don't know, as I was not there, and as has been stated by others, you have to play it as you see it at the time.

    I am glad everyone in this situation ended up un-harmed.


    Tarzan

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    I think you did very well, and that your actions highlight a critical point that the "legalizedcarry = bloodbath" crowd misses. That is, that many responsible people want to carry firearms solely for personal protection. Not to be vigilantes, not to settle arguments, and not to stroke their egos. Good job!

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    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    "**** all that ********...If you are armed you have a MORAL OBLIGATION to go kill that ************. Forget legal. Forget liability. Forget LEO/NON-LEO crap. Forget getting killed. Crack open a can of man and get in there and do God's work"

    - James Yeager
    LoL

    :celebrate

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    i applaud you for your collectiveness. i'd like to think i'd do the same.

  17. #17
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    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    "**** all that ********...If you are armed you have a MORAL OBLIGATION to go kill that ************. Forget legal. Forget liability. Forget LEO/NON-LEO crap. Forget getting killed. Crack open a can of man and get in there and do God's work"

    - James Yeager
    I feel so wimpy and soiled now:shock:

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    I still don't know who is 'James Yeager' but the search was interesting, especially G00gles' first hit.

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    Quite a few folks on here would curse you for not having tried to kill them. What were you thinking? You had a gun y0. You should have killed them!

    That it!!

    I hereby sentence you to 80 hours of remedial Mall Ninja training! Don't you know that there are mall ninjas all over this nation dying to be in that situation and using their mad tyt3 tacticool skillz to single handedly take out the BGs!!

    Seriously, I would probably have done the same thing. We are not adjunct LEO, we are private citizens who carry for defense against serious bodily injury and death, not to provide public service security. Good evaluation of your limitations in all arenas.
    It's pretty interesting how much your attitude changes when beer is the thing being stolen.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Flintlock's Avatar
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    Weak 9mm wrote:
    Quite a few folks on here would curse you for not having tried to kill them. What were you thinking? You had a gun y0. You should have killed them!

    That it!!

    I hereby sentence you to 80 hours of remedial Mall Ninja training! Don't you know that there are mall ninjas all over this nation dying to be in that situation and using their mad tyt3 tacticool skillz to single handedly take out the BGs!!

    Seriously, I would probably have done the same thing. We are not adjunct LEO, we are private citizens who carry for defense against serious bodily injury and death, not to provide public service security. Good evaluation of your limitations in all arenas.
    It's pretty interesting how much your attitude changes when beer is the thing being stolen.
    I see you have now taken the misconstued information from another thread and are letting it tag along with you on your postings. So you don't think it was a justifiable shoot in the beer thread and some others do.. So what? Why are you letting it get to you so much? It's not personal and it's all only opinion.It's just discussion, nobody is coming at you like you are wrong and we are right. It's simple dialogue.

    These types of comments do little in debating your side of the issues.

    Most states are not like Texas and the laws are not favorable to duplicate that incident in other locations.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    Woah woah, I DO think it was justifiable. This was NOT justifiable. (<-- Sarcasm) <-- Edited in at about 1:00am so as to not hijack thread further.

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    Regular Member Flintlock's Avatar
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    Again, I personally would NOT have fired in the beer incident or the jewelry incident unless, perhaps,I saw a weapon present in the jewelry robbery.

    That said, I was only speaking of what I know of Texas law and what citizens are allowed to do. I can't speak for Florida law and I won't even pretend to be a lawyer.

    Each situation is different and of course, the laws vary. I don't think anyone was condoning shooting people over beer, just that being that it was legal to do so, the criminals should know better and are risking it if they commit crimes.

    I think you think your opponents on the beer thread are condoning shooting over minuscule property like beer as a principle. If others were, I didn't get that impression, and I was certainlynot suggesting that. I am more focused on the law, why it exists, business owners, and that criminals get-what-they-get when they take those kinds of chances in a state with lawslike that.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    Again, I have learned that shooting people over beer is what is best. (<-- Sarcasm at it's maximum level.) <-- Edited in at about 1:00am so as to not hijack thread further.

    I wont steal this thread anymore, I just wanted to point out how interesting it is that the individual would congratulate this person, and then put word after word in my mouth because I said something that was almost exactly the same as what they said in this thread. You even called me out on that, when I said that we don't have the right to own guns for the purpose of stopping crimes. I don't know how it came across but the point was exactly the same as the one I quoted in this thread. I was "called out" by that very individual for quite a few things that I never even said. I was not trying to hijack this thread, but simply note the contradiction.


  24. #24
    Regular Member Flintlock's Avatar
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    Weak 9mm wrote:
    Again, I have learned that shooting people over beer is what is best.

    I wont steal this thread anymore, I just wanted to point out how interesting it is that the individual would congratulate this person, and then put word after word in my mouth because I said something that was almost exactly the same as what they said in this thread. You even called me out on that, when I said that we don't have the right to own guns for the purpose of stopping crimes.
    I see what you were trying to do now, I didn't see a name attached to your quote, my apologies...

    But come on, saying that you have learned that shooting people over beer is what is best is absurdas that is not what I was suggesting and I think you know that and are trying to twist the discussion into something else.

    For the record, theproduct doesn't matter to me if it's justifiable per Texas law. If you don't like that (which apparently you don't), then argue about the law as it exists, not someone following it or even justspeaking of it like I am. That's really what the whole discussion comes down to anyway. It has nothing to do with beer.
    Peace through superior firepower

    Luke 11:21
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.

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    Good Judgement and Focus on the situation at hand.

    That kind of mindsetshould be themodel for allGun Carriersto have.

    Cool, Calm and Collected.

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