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Thread: No carry signs only apply to CCW permit holders

  1. #1
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    As we all know there are those dreaded little signs that qoute, prohibit law abiding citizens to carry a "... deadly weapon..." in/on certain public places. However I was talking to a local prosecutor at the gun shop near my house the other day and he told me something very interesting...

    I pulled this off of www.corsa.org

    On April 8, 2004, Ohio’s concealed carry statute (HB 12) takes effect. Under the new law, ORC 2923.126 prohibits a license holder from carrying a concealed handgun into (among other places) a county jail, detention facility, courthouse, any structure in which a courtroom is located, any building owned by a county, or any portion of a privately owned building which is leased by a county. ORC 2923.1212 requires that counties post signs in all county owned and leased buildings, informing the public that concealed handguns are prohibited. The Sheriff is responsible for posting in the Sheriff’s Office, County Jail and Corrections Facilities. The Commissioners are responsible for posting in all other County buildings. The sign should be posted at each building entrance. ORC 2923.1212(A) requires the signs contain 'substantially' the following statement: "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly posses, have under the person’s control, convey or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordinance onto these premises." Other than that, the statute does not require that the sign contain specific text or graphics. The Commissioners and the Sheriff have the discretion and the responsibility to select an appropriate sign format and post county buildings.

    What I want you to notice is the part that I high lighted. Acording to this prosecutor I met, the No carry signs only apply to people that have recieved their permit. Meaning that someone without a permit, can carry in any building openly. Of course private property can ask you to leave and you must obey. However this would mean that as long as you do NOT have your permit, you would be able to carry into the local mall that is posted with the "no weapons" signs.

    Now I dont know or even think that this is true. Also my example is not the best, however some anti-CCW signs have the codes at the bottom of the sign saying "in acordiance with..." blah blah blah. Those ORC laws only apply to CCW permit holders is what this guy told me. And that as long as you are open carrying without a CCW they cant hold you accountable to the CCW laws.

    Also on the Ohio Attorney Generals website (http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevent...arry/index.asp) when you view the example sign there is a note next to the download that reads this.
    (NOTE: This is an example of a standard warning sign approved for use on state buildings. If you see this sign, it means that you cannot bring your concealed handgun inside. This sign is in the public domain. Businesses and persons wishing to post such signs are strongly advised to consult their legal counsel for language, style, format and placement.)
    Again with the CCW not open carry. I just found all of this very interesting.

    It would seem that in the government &quote "allowing" you to bear arms and obtain a CCW, you lose the privilage to carry anywhere. And if you do not obtain a permit, then you are clear to openly carry when ever, where ever.


    Bring on the comments....



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    OK, my $.02... If you walk into any Ohiocourthouse with a pistol strapped on, they will not ask you anything. You will be ordered - at an absolute minimum - to leave, and more likely forcibly disarmed and criminally charged. That's my understanding of the relevant section of the ORC, anyway.

    The actual text seems pretty unambiguous: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.123. You were quoting the wrong section, with regard to the courts anyway. As for other government agencies like the title bureau... dunno. These are often located in the same building as courtrooms, however, so I doubt they'd split that hair.

    -ljp

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    No I dont plan on ever trying this, and my intenet was to recommend that ANYONE try to go into a courtroom strapped. I was more interested in store, gas stations, resturants, things of that nature. Not the civil buildings. My point and question was just, if you have a CCW are you now no longer allowed to carry in places such as stores, gas stations, resturants, ect.. that you could/would be able to carry into if you did NOT have a permit. Because the ORC only prohibits CCW holders with those signs. ( Im not actually interested inthe civil building side at all. I just couldnt believe when he told me I could open carry in any store even if it was posted as long as I didnt have my CCW. But that since I had my CCW it would now be illegal for me to do so. )

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    I see... The ORC section you mentioned specified gov't structures. As for the "no CCW here" generally, it's up to the location. I understand them to mean that they don't want guns there at all, and violating the spirit of the warning, if not the letter, will probably get you thrown out. Refusing to leave and splitting hairs over permit status will probably meet with a call to the cops and a trespassing complaint. That'd be my bet.

    -ljp

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    Ok, first a disclaimer; I retired 3/1/99, well before 9/11, so things might have (and probably did) change after that.

    Naturally, when entering the [Montgomery] County Jail, we were required to secure our weapon(s), including Mace, etc. in a locker provided for that purpose. This was back in the 70's and probably stands today.

    The odd thing was I could enter any District Court or Common Pleas in uniform say for a trial or pre-trial and keep my weapon and nothing was said. The only exception was the Juvenile Court. I can't put in words just how naked I felt walking around Juvenile Court amongst all the dirt bags and not having a weapon.

    As I said, I can't speak for post-1911, but prior to that, Judges, Bailiffs, Clerks and Prosecutors trusted us enough where carrying was not an issue. Even the Detectives, wearing their firearms under their suits, had no problem.

    Bob

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    Well it's different for cops, sure. Not sure if any and all can carry into court now or if that's reserved for the Sheriff's people specifically guarding the place. I think any LEO/judge/bailiff/probation/parole officer can carry into court though. Non-LEO permit holders and non-permit OCersare prohibited.

    All the jails here require weapons to be secured upon entry, as far as I know, or at least if prisoners are being escorted. They have the array of lockers at the entrance for that purpose, yes.

    -ljp

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    SWhetsel wrote:
    As we all know there are those dreaded little signs that qoute, prohibit law abiding citizens to carry a "... deadly weapon..." in/on certain public places. However I was talking to a local prosecutor at the gun shop near my house the other day and he told me something very interesting...

    I pulled this off of http://www.corsa.org


    What I want you to notice is the part that I high lighted. Acording to this prosecutor I met, the No carry signs only apply to people that have recieved their permit. Meaning that someone without a permit, can carry in any building openly. Of course private property can ask you to leave and you must obey. However this would mean that as long as you do NOT have your permit, you would be able to carry into the local mall that is posted with the "no weapons" signs.


    This is not true. See ORC 2923.1212 Signage prohibiting concealed handguns.

    "(A) The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form:

    “Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person’s control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.” :"

    - This does not mention anything about concealed or open, just "no person!" Also if you look at the signs, (at least most of them) they prohibit all firearms, not concealed! See: http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevent..._hb12_sign.pdf

    IF one carries (open or concealed) in an area that is posted prohibited, that person is guilty of criminal trespassing!!!

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    Dont get to excited there. I am not the one saying its OK to do. I'm just posting about what this joker said. But, to play devils advocate I'll add this.

    What you just wrote is all fine and dandy but this like is what gets me.

    ...pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code...
    Now what code is it talking about. The ORC that is cited on the bottom of most signs is one that applies only to CCW holders. (or so this guy was saying)

    Im not not even trying to say that this is a good idea, or that I think you can carry somewhere with these signs posted. And YES the sign posted on the AG's web site says "no person". But the law is in persuant to ORC, but which one? Most of the CCW and sign laws apply to those WITH a CCW. So if you dont have one are you held to the same laws?

    I am simply starting conversation over something I heard that sounded like a topic people in this forum would enjoy finding more onformation out about. Just remember when you post a reply that Im not the bad guy, Im not for breaking the law, I dont want people to try something stupid, I DO support OC and CC, I am not some under cover liberal that wants to ban guns. Just want it to be clear is all.

    :celebrate


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    I am not getting excited. I am just trying to state it clearly enough so that others understand that this information that has been passed on to you is incorrect and will land someone in jail!

    As for the signs - I don't care what this person said (and neither will any judge in Ohio)- the one that I linked (from the attorney general's website only says "pursuant to the Ohio Revised code", not specifying a specific area - so the argument that it only pertains to the CCL holders is irrelevant. It most likely is referencing thearea in which it statesthat businesses who wish to restrict the carrying of firearms on their property must post this, and the area which states that if one violates this posting, they will be charged with criminal trespassing. It would be a different only if the signs specifically stated a certain and only that certain section of the revised code which deals with CCL only. This is not the case!

    I was not making you (SWetsel)out to be the bad guy or trying to come off as attacking. But, why I was firm is because I believe that it is a little irresponsible to pass on information that may possibly end up negatively affecting another.

  10. #10
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    Most businesses that want to make believe they can keep ALL guns out merely need to make a sign, in crayon made by a fourth grader if they chose, that says "No Guns Allowed", and place them in conspicuous places at the entrance of their place of business.

    Those signs are perfectly legal, and thereis no "hair splitting" possible. But then, most people who run these businessess who want to dis-allow guns, aren't that smart to begin with.

  11. #11
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    I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on t.v....but I believe Ohio has hidden the exemption to the "posted" signs right in plain sight...

    Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person’s control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.”

    The original law upon whichALL others are based,the Ohio Constitution, authorizes OPEN carry by anyone and in fact the Ohio Supreme Court has ruled as such...the state can REGULATE concealed carry but not open.

    Consequently, after the exclusion clause--unless otherwise--everything else is NULL and VOID.

    Private property owners can ask you to leave, but you are not violating "law" except if you refuse to take your business and your person elsewhere.

    IMmHOoc.

    UnIrWe==We The People


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