Was I just Terry Stopped?

vt357 · May 15, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

3. If an LEO demands your CHP,you must exhibit it, along with proper ID. This is not to say that you can't attempt a diversion by pointing out, "No CHP needed for OC, sir." Nor does it say that you can't leave the CHP at home when OCing.You don't need it for OC. If you don't have it with you, you can't show it.

Is this true? I was under the impression that you must only display the permit if you are carrying concealed.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

18.2-308-H

...The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. (emphasis mine)

Decoligny · May 15, 2008

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vt357 wrote:

Citizen wrote:

3. If an LEO demands your CHP,you must exhibit it, along with proper ID. This is not to say that you can't attempt a diversion by pointing out, "No CHP needed for OC, sir." Nor does it say that you can't leave the CHP at home when OCing.You don't need it for OC. If you don't have it with you, you can't show it.

Click to expand...

Is this true? I was under the impression that you must only display the permit if you are carrying concealed.

If you are carrying concealed, then yes you need to carry your CHP. However, if you are not carrying concealed (OC = Open Carry), then you do not have to carry your CHP.

Mike · May 15, 2008

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Follow up with the PD - a short note objecting to having to go thru a NICS check while going about your business and to ensure officer XXX get's the word.

Citizen · May 15, 2008

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AbNo wrote:

SNIP I want to kind of prepare properly for this before I go in.

Not sure what you mean by "go in."

Don't meet with them. And don't let them settle it by phone.

Write a formal complaint,stating that you want a reply that includes the findings of their investigation, the measures they plan to take to prevent recurrence, and a description of the general nature of any action taken against the officer.

In the complaint, do not use subjective impressions, "I felt I would have to comply." Use statements of fact. For example, if true, "Officer X demanded that I approach the open passenger window of the vehicle." "Officer X authoritatively told me to hand him my ID."

AbNo · May 15, 2008

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How do I go about writing in a formal complaint? Registered/Certified mail?
I haven't done this before.

Citizen · May 15, 2008

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Excerpts that may help:

Piggot vs Commonwealth http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/2250992.txt

Piggot v. Commonwealth, 34 Va. App. 45, 49, 537 S.E.2d 618, 619 (2000).

"The "principle embodied by the phrase 'free to leave' means the ability to ignore the police and to walk away from them," to "'feel free to decline the officers' requests or otherwise terminate the encounter.'" United States v. Wilson, 953 F.2d 116, 122 (4th Cir. 1991) (quoting Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S. 429, 436 (1991)). "Fourth Amendment scrutiny is triggered, however, the moment an encounter 'loses its consensual nature.'" Id. (quoting Bostick, 501 U.S. at 434).

Detective Langford's request for Piggott's identification initiated a consensual encounter and implicated no Fourth Amendment interest. However, the consensual aspect of the encounter ceased when Detective Langford retained Piggott's identification while he ran a warrant check. A reasonable person in Piggott's circumstances would not have believed that he could terminate the encounter and walk away. By retaining Piggott's identification, Detective Langford implicitly commanded Piggott to stay. See Hodnett v. Commonwealth, 32 Va.App. 684, 691-92, 530 S.E.2d 433, 436 (2000). Thus, for Fourth Amendment purposes, Piggott was then "seized" by Detective Langford. See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 16 (1968). "In order to justify such a seizure, an officer must have a 'reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity on the part of the defendant.'" Hatcher v. Commonwealth, 14 Va. App. 487, 490, 419 S.E.2d 256, 258 (1992) (quoting Commonwealth v. Holloway, 9 Va. App. 11, 15, 384 S.E.2d 99, 101 (1989)).

The circumstances in this case gave Detective Langford no objectively reasonable basis for suspecting that Piggott was engaged in criminal activity. Detective Langford had no information to such effect, nor had he observed any criminal behavior. Piggott cooperated and willingly gave his correct identification.

Because Detective Langford's encounter with Piggott ceased to be consensual, and because the circumstances provided no lawful basis for further detention, Piggott was seized in violation of his Fourth Amendment rights."

Did the officer tell you to wait while he checked your name on the computer? If he didn't, were there other indications that you should not leave until he cleared you?

peter nap · May 15, 2008

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You seem to have an ongoing problem with the Harrisonburg PD, Abno. Judging from the postings you've made, it doesn't seem to be anything your doing to cause the problems...so it's safe to assume that Harrisonburg still has some loose cannons floating around.

They always had some but I would have thought they were cleaned out by now.

You may want to consider some serious education. While many here push lawsuits, the simple fact is, it's too expensive unless there is some serious harm.

That leaves the administrative approach. File complaints, raise hell with internal affairs, make recordings and be obvious about it.

The bigger his file is, the less chance he has of moving up and there is always the chance of being demoted.

229 doesn't like that approach and honestly, I don't either unless it's necessary. It's starting to look like it''s necessary.

When I was a kid in the valley and everyone had a garden, we'd shoot a few crows and hang them on a line in the garden. It did keep crows away. Wrecking a few careers does the same thing.

One thing to look at is the PD's policy and procedure manual. It's subject to FOIA. See if he was in compliance with the procedure for approaching a legally armed citizen who is not breaking any law.

ed · May 16, 2008

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nemo wrote:

ed wrote:

tape? whats that??!!??

Click to expand...

Ed? What are you doing here? I thought that you were down in Richland, or eating pizza, somewhere....

Have you tested that recorder? Does it pick up while in a shirt pocket, or do you have to hold it up towardpeople as they speak? How is voice clarity? What do you like about it? not like? Etc.

Oh, yeah: is it bullet proof? :lol:

1. Pizza nite is Monday in Leesburg.

2. I have tested it and use it (them) all the time. I have like 3 of them. They all work about the same but my Panasonic is my favorite.. (uploads to pc the easiest)

3. it picks up ok in the pocket.. certainly better than memory or not having it.. Here are two LONG samples of its use. http://www.flyboyed.com/gq/1.wav and http://www.flyboyed.com/gq/2.wav ... both talking to Tim Kaine..

4. Bullet Proof? Don't know yet.. hope i never find out.

bohdi · May 16, 2008

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Citizen you sir are a well armed man. Thanks for sharing your bullets.

Ohio Patriot · May 16, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

If an LEO demands your CHP,you must exhibit it, along with proper ID.

But what if you're not carrying a concealed weapon? Surely you don't need to show your CHP if you're simply OCing and not carrying a concealed weapon.

Bill in VA · May 16, 2008

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.

Sleepless · May 16, 2008

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ed wrote:

nemo wrote:

ed wrote:

tape? whats that??!!??

Click to expand...

Ed? What are you doing here? I thought that you were down in Richland, or eating pizza, somewhere....

Have you tested that recorder? Does it pick up while in a shirt pocket, or do you have to hold it up towardpeople as they speak? How is voice clarity? What do you like about it? not like? Etc.

Oh, yeah: is it bullet proof? :lol:

Click to expand...

1. Pizza nite is Monday in Leesburg.

2. I have tested it and use it (them) all the time. I have like 3 of them. They all work about the same but my Panasonic is my favorite.. (uploads to pc the easiest)

3. it picks up ok in the pocket.. certainly better than memory or not having it.. Here are two LONG samples of its use. http://www.flyboyed.com/gq/1.wav and http://www.flyboyed.com/gq/2.wav ... both talking to Tim Kaine..

4. Bullet Proof? Don't know yet.. hope i never find out.

Could you send us a product link of the ones you have if possible??

ed · May 16, 2008

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Sleepless wrote:
Could you send us a product link of the ones you have if possible??

ed replied:
GOOGLE is your best link..

My favorite one is the Panasonic RRUS395. Mostly because of the USB software and text to speech and other stuff it does.

Close second is the SONY ICD-PS20.

Third is the olympus 4100pc (if you get this one from AMAZON.. you will order the 4100PC but you will only get the 4100)

They are ALL great.

Citizen · May 16, 2008

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Ohio Patriot wrote:

But what if you're not carrying a concealed weapon? Surely you don't need to show your CHP if you're simply OCing and not carrying a concealed weapon.

Ohio Patriot and vt357,

You guys have a point. I might be wrong.

Here is was the statute says, excerpted from 18.2-308 H:

...The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer...

I'm notknowledgeable on statutory construction beyond my understanding of basic grammar, which seems to decline the farther I get from grammar school.

Comments? Please include your authority-ness or citeyour source.

sjhipple · May 16, 2008

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We'll never know if it was a Terry because you never asked if you were being detained. Best course of action would have been to ask if you were being detained and if not, to bid the officer a good day and be on your way. No reason to consent to being a suspect by giving your name.

A formal complaint is definitely in order. The way he treated you was abhorant.

hsmith · May 16, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

Ohio Patriot wrote:

But what if you're not carrying a concealed weapon? Surely you don't need to show your CHP if you're simply OCing and not carrying a concealed weapon.

Click to expand...

Ohio Patriot and vt357,

You guys have a point. I might be wrong.

Here is was the statute says, excerpted from 18.2-308 H:

...The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer...

I'm notknowledgeable on statutory construction beyond my understanding of basic grammar, which seems to decline the farther I get from grammar school.

Comments? Please include your authority-ness or citeyour source.

Seems to me to be conditional. If you have a CHP and you are carrying concealed, then, and only then, must you display the CHP and a Photo ID. If you have a CHP but are OC'ing, you do not fit the requirement of carrying concealed.

I think the best action would be to ask the officer "Am I carrying concealed" to see what their opinion is on how they view it (which of course, they can be totally wrong). If they say no, they haven't satisfied the statute to demand your CHP and ID.

But i am not a lawyer, just a programmer

Citizen · May 16, 2008

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ama-gi wrote:

We'll never know if it was a Terry because you never asked if you were being detained. Best course of action would have been to ask if you were being detained and if not, to bid the officer a good day and be on your way. No reason to consent to being a suspect by giving your name.

Not arguing with you. Just providing additional info. and a broader perspective.

Fortunately the courts have given us the indicators they consider when determining whether a person was Terry-stopped. And, halleluja! none seem to hinge on whether the person asked or the cop stated it. Cops lie. People forget to ask. Of course if a copdeclared thatyou're being detained, that would probably count!

Its my understanding the courts decide based on whether the totality of circumstances wouldmake a reasonable person feel he is free to disregard the officer's inquiries.

Decoligny · May 16, 2008

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Ohio Patriot wrote:

Citizen wrote:

3. If an LEO demands your CHP,you must exhibit it, along with proper ID. This is not to say that you can't attempt a diversion by pointing out, "No CHP needed for OC, sir." Nor does it say that you can't leave the CHP at home when OCing.You don't need it for OC. If you don't have it with you, you can't show it.

Click to expand...

But what if you're not carrying a concealed weapon? Surely you don't need to show your CHP if you're simply OCing and not carrying a concealed weapon.

Slow down and read the answers that are already there.

1. If you are carrying a concealed weapon, you need to provide your CHP and ID.

2. If you are open carrying, you do NOT need to show a CHP or ID.

Citizen · May 16, 2008

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bohdi wrote:

Citizen you sir are a well armed man. Thanks for sharing your bullets.

Thank you for the compliment. You're welcome.

Its pretty powerful ammunition. Made by the stongest manufacturers around--SCOTUS, VA Court of Appeals, and VA Supreme Court. They load it hot. Best premium defensive ammo on the market.

I'm trying to get their advertising department to use one of theselittle slogans:

[align=left]"When you want respect,carry the best."[/align]"Black Robe Ammunition. Give 'em the block's view of the gavel."

"Black Robe Ammunition. It gets Respect."

nitrovic · May 17, 2008

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AbNo wrote:

I have no idea how to classify this, or what/if I need to take any further steps......

So, I walked a few blocks up the road to a friend's house to get a haircut while waiting for a replacement-replacement part for my Jeep.

I was passed by a marked H'burg patrol car, nothing came of it. Still made a mental note for later mention here.

Got my hair cut, bs'ed a little with my friend, left her house, headed back to Autozone to finish working on my 'auto.

As I'm walking down the road, a marked Harrisonburg Explorer comes from behind me (I'm walking on the right hand sidewalk, the way I'm headed), hits the brakes, and half-way pulls over to me, blocking literally half the road.

Readying myself for the Permit Question, I stopped and turned to the obviously BPV'd officer.

"Excuse me sir, do you have a concealed carry permit for that?"

"It's not concealed, so I have no need for a-"

"I didn't ask that, I asked if you had a concealed carry permit for that."

"Negative. It's openly carried, therefore I need no perm-"

(This continues a couple of times)

"Can I get your name?"

"May I ask why?"

"I want to make sure you're legally allowed to have a gun."

"It's not illegal to carry a gun openly."

"Can I get your name?"

(Cue about 5 repetitions of this, with minor variations)

Me, noticing the difficulty traffic is having navigating around this jacked-up, decked-out Explorer: How about we move you over a bit, so we're not blocking traffic so much?

*I lean back off and out of his passenger side window, where I had been at his request, and step about 15 feet down the road and onto the curb, so traffic can pass more easily*

Me: "Now, is stopping people in this town a NORMAL occuran-"

"I just want to run your name so I can make sure it's not illegal for you to have a gun."

"It's not illegal for me to have a g-"

"I want to run your name so I know you aren't prohibited from carrying a gun."

*about five more passes, "OFC Friendly" here is obviously getting agitated, I maintain my usual "I left my care face at home" demeanor, which probably didn't help the situation.

Did help the shakes, though. :lol:

So, we continued this "What's your name?" "Is this normal to stop people that are walking down the street?" banter for a while. I can tell he's getting fed up, and decide to play the only Trump Card I had on me: A clean record.

I give him my name, he spells both first and last wrong, I figure this should be amusing even if something DOES come up, since I can say "Yeah, you spelled it wrong, try again."

Check comes back "No wants", by this time, I've heard about another break-in over on Port Republic while this guy's trying to prove himself right. Dispatch calls his car number (13, not so lucky today, I guess).

"Well, I guess you need to get over there."

He turns off his radio, doesn't even acknowledge it, and starts giving me a lecture on how I should get a CHP, more comfortable, less reaction from the public, he ends up going through the CHP speech about 8 times over the course of the next five minutes where I try to be nice to him, ask him about his background, try to see things from his side, try to be nice, you know?

"CHP, CHP, CHP."

"I'm guessing you grew up around here, or maybe live in this neighborhood."

"CHP, CHP, CHP."

"Well, how about [this one neighborhood on the other side of town I used to live in] what do you think about that place?"

"That place... it kinds has its ups and downs. Now, CHP, CHP, CHP. Oh, and situational awareness."

"Ever been to the Middle East?"

"Yeah, CHP, CHP, CHP."

Being that I've not responded at all to his CHP speeches, I think he finally decides it prudent to answer that burglary call, and departs.

Unfortunantly, my voice recorder has been on the blink the last few days, so I wasn't able to get any of this. :banghead:

Sorry! I can only fix and replace so much at once! Between my Jeep's start and the TPS, I've been a bit busy lately.

Edit: Almost forgot, I had to educate him on state preemption, information to which he turned up his nose and sneered. He didn't seem terribly interested in continuing the conversation after I mentioned I research law as a hobby (which, being on here, you kinda do), or that I was (based on his reactions) more versed in Carry law than he was.

Officer did nothing wrong. No 4th amendment violations at all much less a departmental one. He never said you couldn't leave. Consentual encounter. Authoritative voice has nothing to do with it.

Was I just Terry Stopped?

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