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Thread: AP Article on lead in deer

  1. #1
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    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...writethru.html

    Total BS if you ask me... I fail to see how there could be any lead outside of the wound channel, let alone enough to contaminate meat badly.

    Idaho raptor group: Study confirms lead fragments in venison By JOHN MILLER
    Associated Press Writer
    BOISE, Idaho — An Idaho raptor group working to eliminate lead from ammunition released findings Tuesday it said shows that ground venison from 80 percent of deer killed with high-velocity lead bullets contains metal fragments.
    The Peregrine Fund, based in Boise, and researchers from Washington State University in Pullman, Wash., say it is further evidence people who eat meat from game animals shot with lead bullets risk exposure to the toxic metal.
    Separately, the North Dakota Health Department and the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are planning a study on nearly 700 people who eat meat from wild game harvested with lead bullets, to determine health risks, if any.
    The suggestion that lead bullets could make venison unsafe for humans has prompted outrage from pro-hunting groups such as Safari Club International, of Somerset, N.J., and the Connecticut-based National Shooting Sports Foundation, a firearms industry group, after North Dakota and Minnesota in March and April instructed food banks there to pull hunter-donated venison from their shelves.
    "This is one more piece of evidence that points to lead bullets as a source of contamination in our environment," Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund, said in a statement ahead of a presentation of the study, which focused on 30 white-tailed deer killed by standard, lead-core, copper-jacketed bullets fired from a high-powered rifle.
    The Peregrine Fund organized the four-day conference at Boise State University to bolster its stand against lead ammunition, with more than 50 scientific presentations on lead poisoning in wildlife and humans, including research on Inuits in Alaska and Russia who practice subsistence hunting.
    The study released Tuesday comes after a Peregrine Fund board member, Dr. William Cornatzer, previously did CT scans of about 100 packets of venison that had been donated to food banks by hunters. He found 60 percent had multiple lead fragments.
    Lawrence Keane, a National Shooting Sports Foundation spokesman, said he hasn't seen the latest study.
    But he said initial evidence supplied by Cornatzer, a dermatologist and professor at the University of North Dakota medical school, didn't justify a policy change or destruction of venison. Groups, including Safari Club, gave nearly 1 million pounds of venison in 2007 to food banks as part of their humanitarian efforts.
    "The Peregrine Fund is an advocacy group and has an agenda," said Keane. "We have serious questions with the so-called science by the dermatologist. It's my understanding there's not a single reported case that the CDC is aware of, of anyone having elevated blood lead levels from eating game harvested with lead ammunition."
    Lead poisoning has been linked to learning disabilities, behavioral problems and, at very high levels, seizures, coma, and death. There is no safe level of lead in blood.
    North Dakota Department of Health epidemiologists said the agency's planned study with the CDC will investigate whether there are any health risks for people, by attempting to determine whether eating wild game harvested with lead bullets results in increased blood lead levels.

    "This study is an important opportunity to help us understand whether swallowing lead bullet fragments causes increased levels of lead in the blood," said state Health Officer Terry Dwelle. "We're hopeful that the study will give us information on which we can base any future recommendations."
    In the study findings released Tuesday, authors, including Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine professor Russell Tucker, found widespread dispersal of metal fragments after taking X-rays of 30 deer shot in Wyoming and processed at 30 different butchers in that state.
    Ground venison from 80 percent of the deer had metal fragments, and 92 percent of those were lead. In addition, metal fragments were found in some steaks, even though processors normally discard meat near the wound and along the bullet's path.
    The Peregrine Fund got its start in 1970 with peregrine falcon recovery efforts and now works to restore California condors to northern Arizona's Grand Canyon region. Watson said the group began suspecting a connection between lead poisoning, bullets, venison and humans after researchers and the Arizona Game and Fish Department discovered about 90 percent of 60 condors that now soar over the Grand Canyon and southern Utah were ailing from lead poisoning after eating hunter-killed deer and leftover gut piles.
    California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger last year signed a law banning lead bullets from condor habitat in his state, and Arizona wildlife managers have a voluntary program encouraging hunters to replace lead bullets with nontoxic copper ammunition. Condor deaths in Arizona dropped from five after the 2006 hunting season to none in 2007.
    "We believe that copper bullets will become the ammunition of choice for hunters to benefit themselves, their families, and wildlife," Watson said.
    ---
    AP writers James MacPherson and Blake Nicholson in Bismarck, N.D., contributed to this report.
    ---
    On the Net:
    Safari Club: http://www.scifirstforhunters.org
    Farmers and Hunters: http://www.fhfh.org/home.asp
    Peregrine Fund: http://www.peregrinefund.org
    National Shooting Sports Foundation: http://www.nssf.org


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    Anyone with half a brain can take stats and make them say whatever they want, just as this bunch is. Its like saying this milk has 50% less fat that this other milk. Sounds like a lot, right? Whole milk has 4% fat and 2% milk has 50 percent less fat. But if one serving of whole milkhas 4 grams of fat and the same size serving of 2% has 2 grams, the difference sound minimal and is, but 50% less sounds like a major difference. Number can be made to lie, FYI, I only hunt with hard cast lead bullets anymore and am not gonna change for some anti lead or hunting group.

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    Crap, double post!

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    How interesting, a group did a study that completely supports their own beliefs. That hardly ever happens. :quirky

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Anyone with half a brain can take stats and make them say whatever they want, just as this bunch is. Its like saying this milk has 50% less fat that this other milk. Sounds like a lot, right? Whole milk has 4% fat and 2% milk has 50 percent less fat. But if one serving of whole milkhas 4 grams of fat and the same size serving of 2% has 2 grams, the difference sound minimal and is, but 50% less sounds like a major difference. Number can be made to lie, FYI, I only hunt with hard cast lead bullets anymore and am not gonna change for some anti lead or hunting group.
    Exactly. If someone says that by drinking X-brand soda, you double your chances of getting stomach cancer. It might be a true statistic and presented that way you wouldn't touch X-brand soda with a ten foot pole. However, if your chance of getting stomach cancer was originally 1 in 7 billion, then you now stand a 2 in 7 billion chance of getting stomach cancer.......gimme an X-brandsoda in Big Gulp size please.

    "85% of statistics are made up, 50% of the time." (Direct TV commercial)

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    Mainsail wrote:
    How interesting, a group did a study that completely supports their own beliefs. That hardly ever happens. :quirky
    Some times it doesn't.



    I remember some years back there was a study done on the children living in Aspen Colorado, for lead contamination. Aspen is an old mining town that mined lead, silver ore. (argentiferous galena)

    This study interested me as I was raised in a mining town in the Rockies, that mined argentiferous galena, and our drinking water came from one of the mines and us kids played on mine dumps.

    They didn't know what to do with their study as the children in Aspen did not have elevated lead in their systems.

    I couldn't find the actual study, but I found this reference to it.

    "The accuracy of the EPA's exposure models is questionable, to say the least. At both the Triumph, Idaho and Smuggler's Mountain (Aspen, Colorado) Superfund sites, for example, federal health investigators were certain that high levels of lead were in the blood of townspeople, given their proximity to mine tailings at the site. Yet after decades of exposure blood tests found lower than average levels of lead in the bodies of residents, probably because the lead was tied up in the mine tailings, so that only grinding or breaking could possibly release the contaminant. The EPA ignored the test data and mandated cleanup anyway and--as a side note--increased the residents' exposure to lead by using heavy equipment to disturb the tailings and thereby increase ambient concentrations of lead. A similar situation exists in Everett, Washington. The arsenic levels in the blood of residents were far below what the EPA expected given the soil contamination at the site and the 100 years of exposure the town has been subjected to from the former smelting facility. "

    http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-rn622.html

    I found a follow up to these test where they had a controlled study of juvenile swine.

    It didn't work much better. They are sure that there must be contamination and health risk,even though they can't really find it.

    "Results

    Dosing effects on animal health and weight. The Pb dose levels we used in this program were substantially below levels that cause clinical symptoms in swine, and we observed no evidence of treatment-related toxicity in any dose group. All animals exposed to Pb by the oral route remained in good health throughout each study; the only clinical signs observed were characteristic of normal swine. Animals typically gained about 0.3-0.5 kg/day, and the rate of weight gain was normally comparable in all exposure groups"

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-160558863.html



    I found another paper on the whole hysteria about lead poisoning.



    "Like old generals who always want to fight the last war, EPA regulators

    are continuing to fight a war against a lead poisoning problem that has

    already been won. By 1990, average blood-lead levels in the bodies of Americans—

    young, old, rich, poor, black, and white—had fallen dramatically

    from 13 micrograms per deciliter in the late 1970s, to about 3 micrograms.

    1, 2
    In that year, less than 0.2 percent of the population had bloodleads

    in excess of 30 micrograms, compared to 1.9 percent in the late 1970s,

    and just 1.1 percent had 15 micrograms, compared to 38 percent in the

    late 1970s. The victory over lead poisoning had nothing to do with removing

    lead from soil, the strategy EPA is obsessed with currently."

    http://www.widigest.com/html/Lead%20Astray.pdf

    If this new study, that started this thread,really means anything, then our ancestors, who hunted game with un-jacketed lead bullets and said game was one of their main sources of nourishment, should have all died early from lead poisoning.

    Once again they will attack something "For the safety of the Children" and this will fail too.



    Tarzan



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    The pro/con lead bullet argument aside, would it be worth "calling out" John Miller, the Associated Press Writer, on his use of the term..."high-velocity" lead bullets?

    As opposed to...what?!?!..."low-velocity"? Assuming that one could make the case that all large game hunting is accomplished with "high-velocity" ammo, which one cannot, would game taken with a .45ACP, or any of the many other pistol calibers or black powder firearms therefor have zero lead fragments? Does it matter? Am I being picky?

    One might understand Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund, using the term "fired from a high-powered rifle". Clearly, he has an agenda and, additionally, may suffer from an unfamiliarity with firearms. (for that matter, when does afirearm become "high-powered"?)

    As a supposedly neutral member of the print media, however, Mr. Miller might be accused of ignorance, intellectual laziness, or deliberately creating hysteria. Itmight be instructive to research hishistory on other 2A/hunting/enviro issues.
    Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire,
    a troublesome servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

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    CrossBow33 wrote:
    The pro/con lead bullet argument aside, would it be worth "calling out" John Miller, the Associated Press Writer, on his use of the term..."high-velocity" lead bullets?

    As opposed to...what?!?!..."low-velocity"? Assuming that one could make the case that all large game hunting is accomplished with "high-velocity" ammo, which one cannot, would game taken with a .45ACP, or any of the many other pistol calibers or black powder firearms therefor have zero lead fragments? Does it matter? Am I being picky?

    One might understand Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund, using the term "fired from a high-powered rifle". Clearly, he has an agenda and, additionally, may suffer from an unfamiliarity with firearms. (for that matter, when does afirearm become "high-powered"?)

    As a supposedly neutral member of the print media, however, Mr. Miller might be accused of ignorance, intellectual laziness, or deliberately creating hysteria. Itmight be instructive to research hishistory on other 2A/hunting/enviro issues.
    Some very good thoughts.

    I would encourage you to do just that and see if Mr. Miller has an agenda. If he does then we know, if he doesn't then he might be amiable to education.



    Tarzan

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    I'm confused. You meant that when you shoot a deer the meat could have metal particles in it??? What a stupid study.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    CrossBow33 wrote:
    The pro/con lead bullet argument aside, would it be worth "calling out" John Miller, the Associated Press Writer, on his use of the term..."high-velocity" lead bullets?

    As opposed to...what?!?!..."low-velocity"? Assuming that one could make the case that all large game hunting is accomplished with "high-velocity" ammo, which one cannot, would game taken with a .45ACP, or any of the many other pistol calibers or black powder firearms therefor have zero lead fragments? Does it matter? Am I being picky?

    One might understand Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund, using the term "fired from a high-powered rifle". Clearly, he has an agenda and, additionally, may suffer from an unfamiliarity with firearms. (for that matter, when does afirearm become "high-powered"?)

    As a supposedly neutral member of the print media, however, Mr. Miller might be accused of ignorance, intellectual laziness, or deliberately creating hysteria. Itmight be instructive to research hishistory on other 2A/hunting/enviro issues.
    Actually compared to jacketed bullets you can only drive lead bullets slowly or several bad things happen. Almost all lead bullets if driven faster than 2000 fps (Feet Per Second) will lead the barrel (melt the outside of the bullet from friction and leave bits of lead in the rifling of the barrel) thusdestroying accuracy. So in reality there is no such thing as a high velocity lead bullet. I drive my lead bullets no faster than 1600 fps, no leading, great accuracy and they stop game in their tracks. I'm using lead bullets in both my rifles and pistols for hunting and target shooting. I still use jacketed hollow points for self defense, but am considering doing some penetration test to compare lead to hollow point jacketed bullets for effectiveness because of the effective results on game of lead bullets. Oh yeah, I'm using 45/70 Goverment 405 grain bullets in my rifle and 250 grain bullets in my carbine and revolver.


    The news media doesn't report the news any more, they sensationalize it to improve ratings and/or circulation.



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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Actually compared to jacketed bullets you can only drive lead bullets slowly or several bad things happen. Almost all lead bullets if driven faster than 2000 fps (Feet Per Second) will lead the barrel (melt the outside of the bullet from friction and leave bits of lead in the rifling of the barrel) thusdestroying accuracy. So in reality there is no such thing as a high velocity lead bullet. I drive my lead bullets no faster than 1600 fps, no leading, great accuracy and they stop game in their tracks. I'm using lead bullets in both my rifles and pistols for hunting and target shooting. I still use jacketed hollow points for self defense, but am considering doing some penetration test to compare lead to hollow point jacketed bullets for effectiveness because of the effective results on game of lead bullets. Oh yeah, I'm using 45/70 Goverment 405 grain bullets in my rifle and 250 grain bullets in my carbine and revolver.


    The news media doesn't report the news any more, they sensationalize it to improve ratings and/or circulation.

    This is very true, but to these yo holes, any bullet is a "high velocity bullet".

    They said that about that worlds smallest pistol that fired a high velocity round at 300 miles per hour. (440 FPS)

    That is not high velocity in anybody's book.



    Tarzan

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    One of the references said: "...focused on 30 white-tailed deer killed by standard, lead-core, copper-jacketed bullets fired from a high-powered rifle", not "high velocity".

    So Bear, you're not trying trying to tell me those 405 grain pumpkins rolling out of the small end of your 45/70 aren't high-powered, are you? :what:

    If they actually have evidence of real-life health issues in humans or raptors I could live with hunting (not target shooting / plinking) with copper.

    I can certainly see how that would be more difficult for our pumkin-rolling friends though. They don't even make 'em 45/70 sized do they?

    Casting your own sounds pretty scary as well; that's a lot more heat.



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    Jim675 wrote:
    I can certainly see how that would be more difficult for our pumkin-rolling friends though. They don't even make 'em 45/70 sized do they?
    Sure they do, MidwayUSA has a bunch of Barnes' Triple-Shock X-Bullets from 250 grain to 500 grain:
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=330121
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=419728
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=558791
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=819504
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=820040
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=911014

    And that's just from page 1 of 6 here: MidwayUSA - Reloading - Bullets - .45 Caliber

    I'm sure 500 grains is more than enough to satisfy any 45-70 pumpkin-roller. :P
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    So should we Washingtonians fight this type of law (no hunting with lead) if they try it locally?

    If no lead for big game then what about rabbits? Varmints? Any animal at all, since potentially anything that escapes could be eaten by another critter?

    I've never seen evidence that lead is purposefully eaten (other than waterfowl) so target shoting or plinking would be covered by the no apparent harm from SV's information that seems to say that lead left alone isn't really dangerous.

    But ingested it does seem to kill off the raptors.

    Hmmm.... I may have to read up on this one. If the suggestion hasn't been tried here yet it surely will be soon. Per Brady's ilk there's no such thing as a bad restriction.



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    I'm still working on my own statistics for the following:
    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
    I haven't found anyone brave enough to record my finding on the latter part...:shock:

    Bear - I do have some hard drives that I would like see destroyed by the 45/70. I want to make some wall art for the IT department.


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    They said that about that worlds smallest pistol that fired a high velocity round at 300 miles per hour. (440 FPS)
    OK, you try moving that fast and see how close you come! :P

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    Jim675 wrote:
    One of the references said: "...focused on 30 white-tailed deer killed by standard, lead-core, copper-jacketed bullets fired from a high-powered rifle", not "high velocity".

    So Bear, you're not trying trying to tell me those 405 grain pumpkins rolling out of the small end of your 45/70 aren't high-powered, are you? :what:

    If they actually have evidence of real-life health issues in humans or raptors I could live with hunting (not target shooting / plinking) with copper.

    I can certainly see how that would be more difficult for our pumkin-rolling friends though. They don't even make 'em 45/70 sized do they?

    Casting your own sounds pretty scary as well; that's a lot more heat.

    Oh, I have to disagree that the 45/70 at Marlin lever gun pressures and velocities are high powered. I have a Ruger #1 in 45/70 Governmentthat will drive a400 grain bullet (jacketed only)at over 2100 fps and that works out to 3942 ft/lbs (which isn't the highest numbers out of that rifle as a 300 grain bullet at 2530+ fps makes 4266 ft/lbs)where as the load I'm using is only2300 ft/lbs. High powered is relative. I have never seen a definition of high powered anywhere. Just claims of high powered. FYI, the latest studies with large diameter bullets shows that 1200 to 1800 fps will out penetrate higher velocities. I've neverhad anything butpass thrus on a Blacktail deer including the one Ishot front to back. .458" in and .458 out.

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    M1Gunr wrote:
    I'm still working on my own statistics for the following:
    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
    I haven't found anyone brave enough to record my finding on the latter part...:shock:

    Bear - I do have some hard drives that I would like see destroyed by the 45/70. I want to make some wall art for the IT department.
    Sure, when would be a good time and where to meet up and shoot?

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    kparker wrote:
    They said that about that worlds smallest pistol that fired a high velocity round at 300 miles per hour. (440 FPS)
    OK, you try moving that fast and see how close you come! :P
    I know its all relative.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    .458" in and .458 out.
    And there you also have an answer for this thread. The problem is small bits of lead the spread throughout the carcass and the predator (or people) eat. So...

    USE BIGGER LEAD!

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    Jim675 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    .458" in and .458 out.
    And there you also have an answer for this thread. The problem is small bits of lead the spread throughout the carcass and the predator (or people) eat. So...

    USE BIGGER LEAD!
    I have never been able to recover a bullet to check for weight loss. I have seen some ballistic gel tests that show no loss but there were no bones involved. I am to poor to run my own test with gel and bones. We have never found any lead fragments in the venison though.

  22. #22
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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    CrossBow33 wrote:
    The pro/con lead bullet argument aside, would it be worth "calling out" John Miller, the Associated Press Writer, on his use of the term..."high-velocity" lead bullets?

    As opposed to...what?!?!..."low-velocity"? Assuming that one could make the case that all large game hunting is accomplished with "high-velocity" ammo, which one cannot, would game taken with a .45ACP, or any of the many other pistol calibers or black powder firearms therefor have zero lead fragments? Does it matter? Am I being picky?

    One might understand Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund, using the term "fired from a high-powered rifle". Clearly, he has an agenda and, additionally, may suffer from an unfamiliarity with firearms. (for that matter, when does afirearm become "high-powered"?)

    As a supposedly neutral member of the print media, however, Mr. Miller might be accused of ignorance, intellectual laziness, or deliberately creating hysteria. Itmight be instructive to research hishistory on other 2A/hunting/enviro issues.
    Some very good thoughts.

    I would encourage you to do just that and see if Mr. Miller has an agenda. If he does then we know, if he doesn't then he might be amiable to education.



    Tarzan

    Pulled this from Wikpedia...

    John Ripin Miller (born 23 May 1938), an American politician, was a member of the United States House of Representatives from 1985 to 1993. He represented the 1st congressional district of Washington as a Republican.

    Miller did not run for re-election in 1992. Prior to being elected congressman, he was active in state and municipal governments, serving as assistant attorney general for Washington; vice president and legal counsel for the Washington Environmental Council; and Seattle City Councilman.

    Miller has served as the director, Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons for the U.S. State Department, with the rank of ambassador-at-large, since 2002. He resigned effective December 15, 2006, to join the faculty of George Washington University.

    Miller has previously served as the chair of the Discovery Institute, and effective upon his resignation, will serve as a distinguished senior fellow in international affairs and human rights with the Institute.

    Also:

    http://search.nwsource.com/search?so...ne=JOHN+MILLER

    In the archived Seattle Times news stories and op/ed pieces I have been able to uncover, Mr. Miller does not appear to have an axe to grind. Perhaps merely a lack of familiarity or, possibly, uncritically parroting the emotionally charged albeit common vernacular regarding firearms issues results in what might be taken assubtle editorializing. Benefit of the doubt...???

    Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire,
    a troublesome servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    .....I have never been able to recover a bullet to check for weight loss.* I have seen some ballistic gel tests that show no loss but there were no bones involved.* I am to poor to run my own test with gel and bones.* We have never found any lead fragments in the venison though.
    That is because the only real lead in the dear came from what he ate.

    The state of Idaho is heavely minerilized and all the plants he eats will have lead in them.

    This lead is concentrated in the deer.

    They knew that before they they ran the tests..



    Tarzan

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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    .....I have never been able to recover a bullet to check for weight loss. I have seen some ballistic gel tests that show no loss but there were no bones involved. I am to poor to run my own test with gel and bones. We have never found any lead fragments in the venison though.
    That is because the only real lead in the dear came from what he ate.

    The state of Idaho is heavely minerilized and all the plants he eats will have lead in them.

    This lead is concentrated in the deer.

    They knew that before they they ran the tests..



    Tarzan
    Probably why they choose Idaho for there test.

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