Got my Maine Permit

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I got my Maine Permit the end of last week. It is so nice to be able to carry a "loaded" firearm". I have done a lot of training in the military and we always have loaded weapons. It is weird to not have one.

I am just not researching and going to make a few phone calls on if I can carry in a school zone of not, since it is a out of state permit.

Quick questions. I don't remember which reference, but what law states that out of state permits at accepted by utah?

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rocknsnow wrote:

I got my Maine Permit the end of last week. It is so nice to be able to carry a "loaded" firearm". I have done a lot of training in the military and we always have loaded weapons. It is weird to not have one.

I am just not researching and going to make a few phone calls on if I can carry in a school zone of not, since it is a out of state permit.

Quick questions. I don't remember which reference, but what law states that out of state permits at accepted by utah?

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[font="Arial,Helvetica"]76-10-523. (2) (see http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052300.htm) is what you are looking for:

[/font][font="Arial,Helvetica"](2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county.

I am not sure whether this applies to 505.5 (school zones), but that section provides an exemption to those authorized under 76-10.523. So as I read it--IANAL, YMMV, etc--State law would even allow school zone carry with an out of State permit and only federal law may be a problem IF it were to be enforced AND found to be constitutional after having been ruled unconstitutional and repassed with nothing but some BS commerce language included. Could be an expensive battle IF it were to be enforced by some federalie however.

Charles
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Thanks Charles. I don't plan to push the school issue. I have no need or the money too. I will get my Utah Permit in a couple months anyway. Thanks for the link and reference. I couldn't remember, and just incase i have a encounter with a LEO i wanted to be prepared.

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rocknsnow wrote:

Thanks Charles. I don't plan to push the school issue. I have no need or the money too. I will get my Utah Permit in a couple months anyway. Thanks for the link and reference. I couldn't remember, and just incase i have a encounter with a LEO i wanted to be prepared.

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Also worth pointing out that the federal gun-free school zone law only covers K-12. Utah law prohibits university carry without a permit, but you're fine on a college campus. Of course, some of the Utah schools (especially the U) are claiming they'll prosecute for on-campus OC, whether it's legal or not. CC on campus should be perfectly fine, though.

Oh, and utahbagpiper wasn't sure whether or not the 76-10-523 exemption applied to 76-10-505.5, the school carry law, but I think 505.5 makes it quite clear:

[font="Arial,Helvetica"] 76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises[/font]

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[font="Arial,Helvetica"] [/font]

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Well...,just read U.S.Code Title 18.922 Unlawful Acts and there might be some other thinking about CCW with an out of State Permit.

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(2)

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;


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IANAL, but Mitch is, so he would be a good person to ask. I have already talked to Clark and he stated this part of the FEDERAL LAW that trumps STATE LAW. I would treat the out of STATE permit as a NON-Permit holder around school zones. You might be stopped by a VERY nice officer who will let you go due to the Fact that you HAVE a Permit but that COULD still violate FEDERAL LAW and he would be "Accessory after the Fact".

Just my .40

TJ

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains s

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I am not a lawyer, but if I were a laywer, I might well argue that Utah has effectively "licensed" holders of out of State permits when it recognized their permits as valid on equal footing with Utah permits in 76-10-504. NOtice it does not say that Utah must issue the license. Only that Utah must license (IE permit or allow) the individual in order for that person to be legally allowed to carry in school zones under federal law.

Utah has voluntarily chosen to accept all permits as valid and so, would argue as a lawyer, if I were one, a Maine or Idaho or other permit is as valid on school zones as is an actual Utah permit. Utah has "licensed" such individuals to carry in school zones by deliberately choosing to adopt the language of 76-10-504.

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utbagpiper wrote:

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains s

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I am not a lawyer, but if I were a laywer, I might well argue that Utah has effectively "licensed" holders of out of State permits when it recognized their permits as valid on equal footing with Utah permits in 76-10-504. NOtice it does not say that Utah must issue the license. Only that Utah must license (IE permit or allow) the individual in order for that person to be legally allowed to carry in school zones under federal law.

Utah has voluntarily chosen to accept all permits as valid and so, would argue as a lawyer, if I were one, a Maine or Idaho or other permit is as valid on school zones as is an actual Utah permit. Utah has "licensed" such individuals to carry in school zones by deliberately choosing to adopt the language of 76-10-504.

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I can see your point of view and does not disagree with it. I believe that we both agree that it would be well advised to have Mitch's take on it by the OP.

TJ

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

I can see your point of view and does not disagree with it. I believe that we both agree that it would be well advised to have Mitch's take on it by the OP.

TJ

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Of course. Remember, that if I get to play lawyer, it isn't my freedom on pocketbook on the line if I am wrong, only my client's.

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When I was messaging with Clark I got this from him, "The BATF intepretation of the law (see link above)(usc 18 922 q 2(ii)) is that this exemption does not extend to permit holders who are legal to carry in a given state by virtue of a reciprocity or recognition statute. It would presumably extend to those with nonresident permits, though."

Then again we/him are not Lawyers.

TJ

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

Well...,just read U.S.Code Title 18.922 Unlawful Acts and there might be some other thinking about CCW with an out of State Permit.

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(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

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TJ, I'm not sure if you were responding to my comment about CC being okay on a university campus. If you were, you missed a key element of my point, which was that the federal law defines a "school" as an elementary or secondary school -- in other words K-12.

So, a university is not a school according to the federal Gun Free Zone Act, and the grounds of a university are not a school zone. That means there is no federal prohibition of carry on college and university campuses, so we fall back to purely state law.

Utah's Gun Free Zone law says carry is prohibited in any school, and it INCLUDES universities. Utah law also says the prohibition doesn't apply to holders of a permit issued by any state or county in the country.

So, here are all the cases, as I see it:

• Without a permit, carrying in K-12 schools is a federal crime AND a state crime.
• Without a permit, carrying in universities is only a state crime.
• With a non-Utah permit, carrying in K-12 schools may be a federal crime but is not a state crime.
• With a non-Utah permit, carrying in universities is not a federal or state crime.
• With a Utah permit, carrying in any school is not a federal or state crime.

The above rules apply to both CC and OC, with the caveat that some universities have promised to hassle OCers regardless of whether or not it's legal.

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

When I was messaging with Clark I got this from him, "The BATF intepretation of the law (see link above)(usc 18 922 q 2(ii)) is that this exemption does not extend to permit holders who are legal to carry in a given state by virtue of a reciprocity or recognition statute. It would presumably extend to those with nonresident permits, though."

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Given what the BATFE has done to David Olofson, I think you can be sure that if you run afoul of their interpretation you're going to have trouble. They just might manage to railroad you like it appears they've done to him.

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Well if that is the case that works for me. I only go to a University. I am a little old for K-12...although I am sure I would fit in a times...:lol:

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Where is a link to the act that states that a school zone is k-12?

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rocknsnow wrote:

Where is a link to the act that states that a school zone is k-12?

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US Code Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 (a)(26):

(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

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I would like some clarification as to what the "as determined under State law" bit means. Does it mean that state law gets to redefine "school" entirely? Or just that the state will define what exactly is mean by "elementary" and "secondary" education? Or does it just mean that the state gets to determine what constitutes a school providing elementary or secondary education?

I think it's the latter, so the school can decide if homeschoolers homes are considered school zones, etc., but it would be good to get clarity on this.

In any case, universities are clearly post-secondary.