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Thread: Equipment

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    So, I'm curious what kind of setup you guys use for UOC. Aside from the usual stuff (holsters, tape recorders etc), I'm thinking about things that may pertain to California's rather... peculiar... set of circumstances.

    Standard equipment seem to be the CA-OC pamphlet and flyer, and an empty mag to serve as a dust cover. It occurred to me that it might be a good idea to select a magazine with a stiff spring, to ensure effective ejection of your "dust cover." After all, should you ever need your weapon, the very first thing you *will* be required to do is eject the empty mag, and you won't have the suppressive-fire benefit of having just expended said empty magazine against your assailants. The last thing you want is for your dust cover to decide it doesn't want to drop free right then.


    I'm accustomed to normal OC in Virginia, where I carry my 1911 in Condition 1 in a BlackHawk Serpa with a single spare mag in a leather case with a snap cover on my weak side.

    I figure if I can't keep a loaded mag in the gun, I should carry two full mags on my belt, so that I still have a "go-to" mag as well as a spare. Another concern I had is that the general consensus here seems to be that a mag is considered a part of the gun and therefore must not be concealed. Furthermore, the kind of mag holster I am accustomed to using (with a closable flap) could, perhaps, be viewed as serving to conceal the contents, which of course would be a concern if they were considered part of a gun(?).

    So, how have you all been carrying your mags? In pairs? In open-top holders, or the closing kind?

    Any thoughts you all may have on the practicalities of selecting gear for "California OC" may serve, if nothing else, to be interesting material for new CA members to peruse.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    So, I'm curious what kind of setup you guys use for UOC. Aside from the usual stuff (holsters, tape recorders etc), I'm thinking about things that may pertain to California's rather... peculiar... set of circumstances.

    Standard equipment seem to be the CA-OC pamphlet and flyer, and an empty mag to serve as a dust cover. It occurred to me that it might be a good idea to select a magazine with a stiff spring, to ensure effective ejection of your "dust cover." After all, should you ever need your weapon, the very first thing you *will* be required to do is eject the empty mag, and you won't have the suppressive-fire benefit of having just expended said empty magazine against your assailants. The last thing you want is for your dust cover to decide it doesn't want to drop free right then.


    I'm accustomed to normal OC in Virginia, where I carry my 1911 in Condition 1 in a BlackHawk Serpa with a single spare mag in a leather case with a snap cover on my weak side.

    I figure if I can't keep a loaded mag in the gun, I should carry two full mags on my belt, so that I still have a "go-to" mag as well as a spare. Another concern I had is that the general consensus here seems to be that a mag is considered a part of the gun and therefore must not be concealed. Furthermore, the kind of mag holster I am accustomed to using (with a closable flap) could, perhaps, be viewed as serving to conceal the contents, which of course would be a concern if they were considered part of a gun(?).

    So, how have you all been carrying your mags? In pairs? In open-top holders, or the closing kind?

    Any thoughts you all may have on the practicalities of selecting gear for "California OC" may serve, if nothing else, to be interesting material for new CA members to peruse.
    The pamphlet and flyer are a must.

    I don't do the "dust cover" as there isn't that much that will get into the mag, and the additional time to drop an empty in order to load a full mag is wasted time.

    I don't know of any magazines that eject using the mag spring as an assist. The mag spring only pushed up on the rounds in order to feed them into the chamber. If the spring helped eject the mag, then any remaining rounds would fly out the top of the mag when ejected.

    I carry using a paddle holster stong side and have a double mag paddle holder on weak side. The mags are visible as they only slide into the holder and are held there by friction.

  3. #3
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    Decoligny wrote:
    The pamphlet and flyer are a must.

    I don't do the "dust cover" as there isn't that much that will get into the mag, and the additional time to drop an empty in order to load a full mag is wasted time.

    I carry using a paddle holster stong side and have a double mag paddle holder on weak side. The mags are visible as they only slide into the holder and are held there by friction.
    I do use a 'dust cover.' I can drop mine reliably and more quickly than I can draw a loaded mag, so there's no wasted time.

    I also use the paddle holster strong side, double mag pouch (paddle) weak side. I keep my firearm at a forward cant because I spend a lot of time driving/sitting while carrying, and this makes my firearm more accessible for these times.
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  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    I don't know of any magazines that eject using the mag spring as an assist.* The mag spring only pushed up on the rounds in order to feed them into the chamber.* If the spring helped eject the mag, then any remaining rounds would fly out the top of the mag when ejected.
    Sure it does. On a 1911, the mag spring pushes on the mag follower, which is what engages the slide stop (by pushing it "up"). This small amount of spring tension is what causes the mag to kind of "spring" free rather than just dropping. This doesn't apply to a mag that is loaded; in this case, only the weight of the mag is assisting it in dropping free.

    Edit: Actually, on a loaded mag the top bullet still protrudes a little out the top and is pushed slightly down into the mag upon insertion into the pistol. This does bring the mag spring into play, although it isn't really noticeable with the large mass of a full mag, which is affected more by gravity than such a small amount of spring tension.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    I don't know of any magazines that eject using the mag spring as an assist. The mag spring only pushed up on the rounds in order to feed them into the chamber. If the spring helped eject the mag, then any remaining rounds would fly out the top of the mag when ejected.
    Sure it does. On a 1911, the mag spring pushes on the mag follower, which is what engages the slide stop (by pushing it "up"). This small amount of spring tension is what causes the mag to kind of "spring" free rather than just dropping. This doesn't apply to a mag that is loaded; in this case, only the weight of the mag is assisting it in dropping free.

    Edit: Actually, on a loaded mag the top bullet still protrudes a little out the top and is pushed slightly down into the mag upon insertion into the pistol. This does bring the mag spring into play, although it isn't really noticeable with the large mass of a full mag, which is affected more by gravity than such a small amount of spring tension.
    The simple way to test or prove this is to hold your gun upside down, then push the magazine release. On my G19, the magazine pops up approx 1/8" with a fully loaded mag. This is the same reason it is easier to load a mag on a slide that is locked back vs. a slide that is forward.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    LOW2000 wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    I don't know of any magazines that eject using the mag spring as an assist.* The mag spring only pushed up on the rounds in order to feed them into the chamber.* If the spring helped eject the mag, then any remaining rounds would fly out the top of the mag when ejected.
    Sure it does. On a 1911, the mag spring pushes on the mag follower, which is what engages the slide stop (by pushing it "up"). This small amount of spring tension is what causes the mag to kind of "spring" free rather than just dropping. This doesn't apply to a mag that is loaded; in this case, only the weight of the mag is assisting it in dropping free.

    Edit: Actually, on a loaded mag the top bullet still protrudes a little out the top and is pushed slightly down into the mag upon insertion into the pistol. This does bring the mag spring into play, although it isn't really noticeable with the large mass of a full mag, which is affected more by gravity than such a small amount of spring tension.
    The simple way to test or prove this is to hold your gun upside down, then push the magazine release.* On my G19, the magazine pops up approx 1/8" with a fully loaded mag.* This is the same reason it is easier to load a mag on a slide that is locked back vs. a slide that is forward.
    You got it! Same reason mags don't "spring" free when you drop them with the slide open.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    So, what do you guys think about mag holders? Does everyone use open-top mag holders for California OC?

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    I was actually curious if there was any requirement or recommendation of any sort other than a tactical issue that mags need to be open carried as well.

    I'd personally rather just drop an extra mag in my pocket instead of turning my belt into a duty belt with a bunch of stuff hanging on it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    LOW2000 wrote:
    I was actually curious if there was any requirement or recommendation of any sort other than a tactical issue that mags need to be open carried as well.

    I'd personally rather just drop an extra mag in my pocket instead of turning my belt into a duty belt with a bunch of stuff hanging on it.
    Case Law:Poeple v. Hale (1974) regards a concealed magazine as the equivalent of a concealed firearm: it is "an essential compent of the firearm". Thus a magazine carried in your pocket could leave you vulnerable to a concealed weapons charge.



    People v. Hale , 43 Cal.App.3d 353[Crim. No. 24910. Court of Appeals of California, Second Appellate District, Division Two. November 20, 1974.]

    THE PEOPLE, Plaintiff and Respondent, v. CHARLES ANDREW HALE, Defendant and Appellant
    (Opinion by Fleming, J., with Roth, P. J., and Compton, J., concurring.) [43 Cal.App.3d 354]
    COUNSEL
    Paul A. Doyle, Jr., under appointment by the Court of Appeal, for Defendant and Appellant.
    Evelle J. Younger, Attorney General, Jack R. Winkler, Chief Assistant Attorney General, S. Clark Moore, Assistant Attorney General, and Edward T. Fogel, Jr., Deputy Attorney General, for Plaintiff and Respondent. [43 Cal.App.3d 355]


    OPINION

    FLEMING, J.
    Charles Andrew Hale appeals the judgment (order granting probation) entered on his plea of guilty to possession of amphetamine. (Health & Saf. Code, § 11350.) Hale contends an illegal search of his automobile tainted the evidence on which his conviction was based.
    The facts, viewed in the light most favorable to the judgment, show that on the afternoon of 12 March 1973 Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff Price, on patrol in San Dimas, stopped an automobile driven by Hale to warn him of a defective brake light. As Price approached the automobile he saw Hale's hand resting on the center console between the front bucket seats. An automatic pistol lay on the front seat only a few inches from Hale's hand. Fearing that Hale might use the pistol, Price drew his service revolver and ordered Hale to take his hand away from the pistol and get out of the automobile. He then gave Hale a pat-down search, which revealed no weapons. At about that time Deputy Sheriff Brown arrived on the scene and spoke with Hale, and Price understood Brown to say that Hale had previously been arrested for possession of a weapon. fn. 1
    While Brown detained Hale, Price entered Hale's automobile to examine the pistol, and in so doing he discovered the pistol lacked an ammunition clip. Inside the automobile Price saw a hunting knife with a 6-inch blade wedged between the driver's seat and the center console, a bayonet with a 12-inch blade protruding beneath the seat, and a dagger-like letter opener above the sun visor. Suspecting that an ammunition clip might be readily available nearby for use with the pistol, and desiring to make certain the pistol could not be used as a weapon when he returned it, Price searched the immediate area of the front seat. Underneath the ashtray of the center console he found one .380 caliber cartridge of the type used in the pistol as well as a vial containing white double-scored tablets which Price recognized as "mini-bennies" (the amphetamine that provided the basis for the prosecution). This is the search challenged here as illegal and unconstitutional.
    [1a] On the facts of the case we conclude that Officer Price had reasonable cause to search the front seat of Hale's automobile and that consequently his discovery of contraband was an incident of a lawful search. [43 Cal.App.3d 356] The facts known to the officer at the time of the search gave him reasonable cause to suspect Hale was committing a crime, viz. unlicensed carrying of a firearm concealed in a vehicle (Pen. Code, § 12025 fn. 2). Only partial concealment of a firearm is required. (People v. Koehn, 25 Cal.App.3d 799, 802 [102 Cal.Rptr. 102]; People v. Tarkington, 273 Cal.App.2d 466, 469 [78 Cal.Rptr. 149]; People v. Linden, 185 Cal.App.2d 752, 757 [8 Cal.Rptr. 640].) One portion of the automatic pistol, the housing and barrel, was visible, and it was reasonable for the officer to suspect concealment nearby of the remaining portion of the firearm, the automatic clip and ammunition. (See Green v. State (Okla.Crim.) 489 P.2d 768.) A firearm disassembled into two or more parts, can nevertheless constitute an operable weapon within the meaning of the Dangerous Weapons Control Law. (People v. Ekberg, 94 Cal.App.2d 613, 616-617 [211 P.2d 316]; see also, State v. Ware (Fla.App.) 253 So.2d 145.)
    "The carrying of concealed firearms is prohibited as a means of preventing physical harm to persons other than the offender." (People v. Jurado, 25 Cal.App.3d 1027, 1032 [102 Cal.Rptr. 498].) [2] In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025. [1b] In the light of the bizarre arsenal of weaponry Hale had installed around the driver's seat of his automobile, Officer Price had reasonable cause to suspect that a clip and ammunition for the automatic pistol might be hidden close at hand and to make a search for them.
    Apart from any specific Penal Code violation, the search was justified as a natural incident of the officer's right to search for weapons when he has reasonable grounds to believe a criminal suspect is "armed and presently dangerous." (Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 24, 27, 30 [20 L.Ed.2d 889, 907-908, 909, 911, 88 S.Ct. 1868]; People v. Superior Court (Simon), 7 Cal.3d 186, 203 [101 Cal.Rptr. 837, 496 P.2d 1205].) The totality of the circumstances, the array of odd and deadly weapons stored about the driver's seat of an automobile by one reported to have been previously arrested on a weapons charge, warranted Officer Price in concluding that during his confrontation with Hale, his safety and the safety of others required a [43 Cal.App.3d 357] search of the area within the immediate reach of the driver to assure that an automatic clip and ammunition were not readily available for use with the pistol.
    The judgment is affirmed.
    Roth, P. J., and Compton, J., concurred.
    ­FN 1. Price later learned that Brown had actually said he once arrested Hale on some type of traffic warrant when Hale came to the station to inquire about serial numbers on a gun. However, we must accept the facts as Price reasonably and in good faith understood them at the time of search. (Burke v. Superior Court, 39 Cal.App.3d 28, 32-33 [113 Cal.Rptr. 801].)
    ­FN 2. Section 12025: "Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, any person who carries concealed upon his person or concealed within any vehicle which is under his control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person without having a license to carry such firearm as provided in this chapter is guilty of a misdemeanor, and if he has been convicted previously of any felony or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, is guilty of a felony."

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    Thanks for helping keep me out of jail Deco. :shock:

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    Followup question, since for the most part here we are talking about unloaded OC, is there any real reason to use a retention holster as opposed to something like a CompTac paddle holster? If you're carrying unloaded, the worst case scenario would be someone grabbing your gun and running away with it but that is IMO a scenario even more rare than having to draw your weapon for defensive use. If someone were to take your gun to try to use it against you, its unloaded, and you still have the loaded mag(s), so it really wouldn't matter either way.



    Any thoughts?

  12. #12
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    LOW2000 wrote:
    Followup question, since for the most part here we are talking about unloaded OC, is there any real reason to use a retention holster as opposed to something like a CompTac paddle holster? If you're carrying unloaded, the worst case scenario would be someone grabbing your gun and running away with it but that is IMO a scenario even more rare than having to draw your weapon for defensive use. If someone were to take your gun to try to use it against you, its unloaded, and you still have the loaded mag(s), so it really wouldn't matter either way.



    Any thoughts?
    How much do you really want to have to attempt to recover your weapon or report it stolen while you were open carrying? There is also the opportunity of making a detaining officer feel a little foolish when they need directions on how to disarm you.

    In my view, we should be treating the weapon as if it were loaded whether or not it actually is... and that inlcudes keeping it as if our lives depended on it.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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