What's your idea's about crime control

swillden · May 23, 2008

imported post

Hawker wrote:

Loosen the law so that murderers and rapists can get a break becauseASFORME would like to smoke dope, run with hookers, and play with machine guns without consequence....

I'm closer to your age, don't smoke dope (or drink alcohol), have never slept with anyone other than my wife, and that not until after marriage... and fully I agree with asforme that drugs, prostitution and automatic weapons should not be illegal.

Please, try thinking and talking about the issues, rather than ASSUME that someone who doesn't agree with you is too young, too stupid, too loose, too stoned, etc., etc., to have a valid opinion.

There are plenty of rational, experienced non-hedonists who believe that legislating moral issues is a bad idea. Just because you've never met them until venturing onto the Internet doesn't mean that your hippie stereotypes apply to everyone who feels this way.

The illegality of drugs in particular, creates massive crime in this country, in exactly the same way and for exactly the same reason as Prohibition did. The solution is exactly the same as it was for prohibition as well. Legalize, regulate and tax drugs, and watch the gang problem dry up and blow away as their true raison d'être disappears.

stephpd · May 23, 2008

imported post

PT111 wrote:

I believe the system is totally messed up. Criminals aren't afraid of the consequences of their actions. Heck, even after years in prison, many are released and commit another (the same) crime right away. Wait. Wasn't he just rehabilitated? NOT.

Click to expand...

There was a great study that I read a few years ago about the effect of increased punishment on crime reduction and rehabilitation. I have no idea who did the study but I remember they interview prisoners serving time for everything from minor offenses to murder trying to determine if the length of the possible sentence had any effect on whether they comminted the crime or not.

What they found was that the length of the possible sentence had little effect as 87% of all prisoners said that they had no idea that they would ever be caught. Whether it was 3 month, 3 years or 30 years had no effect on the decision to commit the crime as getting caught was the last thing on their mind.

Now keeping someone in jail 30 years vs. 3 months will keep them from committing a crime against the public for an addidtional 29+ years but when they get out if they aren't worried about getting caught then there hasn't been much rehabilitation. What this study basically said was that about 13% of prisoners can be rehabilitated but the rest might as well stay locked up forever.

That only covered detention and not punishment. This state had a whipping post just outside the jail/court. Saturday they would be brought out whipped and released.

Makes you think about commiting another crime.

Personnally I could care less about rehabilatation. I want them to pay for having to be locked up. That's why I like my suggestion above. Work, no pay, no freedom. no electricity after sunset.

Goog night.

Thanks every one, this is going well.

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

stephpd wrote:

Personnally I could care less about rehabilatation. I want them to pay for having to be locked up. That's why I like my suggestion above. Work, no pay, no freedom. no electricity after sunset.

That's the thing -- if you don't rehabilitate, then what you get after their sentence is finished is someone more likely to reoffend. Putting a band-aid on an arterial puncture wound is only going to take care of an immediate problem, but the long-term issue will still exist.

asforme · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

stephpd wrote:

Personnally I could care less about rehabilatation. I want them to pay for having to be locked up. That's why I like my suggestion above. Work, no pay, no freedom. no electricity after sunset.

Click to expand...

That's the thing -- if you don't rehabilitate, then what you get after their sentence is finished is someone more likely to reoffend. Putting a band-aid on an arterial puncture wound is only going to take care of an immediate problem, but the long-term issue will still exist.

Murder and rape should be met with the death penalty. Drug users should not be incarcerated in the first place. And the only thing that will keep a thief from stealing after he gets out of prison is a fear of the armed public he would be stealing from.

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

asforme wrote:

Murder and rape should be met with the death penalty. Drug users should not be incarcerated in the first place. And the only thing that will keep a thief from stealing after he gets out of prison is a fear of the armed public he would be stealing from.

Manslaughter? Accidental, reckless or negligent homicide?

Sexual assault? Offensive touching?

Embezlement? Con games? Home improvement schemes?

As for drug users, you've advocated recreational drug use, but what about narcotics? People who sell to children? People who intentionally or unintentionally mix bad batches and distribute? Outside of that, the discussion is about crime control in our current governmental climate and habitual users who use to the point where they destory their lives and become a burden to the taxpayers need to be rehabilitated.

And an armed public is not "the only thing" that will prevent someone from stealing property. People CAN be rehabilitated -- your view just comes off as way too narrow to cover every type of offense.

PT111 · May 23, 2008

imported post

-- murder is usually a one-time deal, whether it be a crime of passion

I would like to see some stats on this. One reason that murder is usually a one time deal is that they are caught and in jail rather than being able to commit more murders. I had a first cousin that was murdered in a murder for hire deal. The person who murdered him also killed another fellow for threatening to talk and buried him behind my Grandmother's house. This fellow killed a third person while in jail because he thought that he may talk when he was paroled the next day. The ones involved with the murder-for-hire deal were charges with thrying to hire someone else to kill one on the witnesses and get out on appeal.

Pee Wee Gaskins was sentenced to life in prison for killing at least 21 people including one of my relativesalonjg with an untold number of others. While he was in prison he was hired to and killed an inmate on death row and was finally executed for it. If ever you want to really be sick read his book "The final truth".

If you check into it I don't think that murder and rape are one time deals in many or most cases unless they are caught and put into prison. When/If they get out there is a good chance that they will repeat. Isn't that what the sex registry is all about.

dave_in_delaware · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

dave_in_delaware wrote:

... Heck, even after years in prison, many are released and commit another (the same) crime right away. Wait. Wasn't he just rehabilitated? NOT.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree with Dave here... Encarceration does not equal rehabilitation -- that's just 'paying their debt to society.' Unless there are social and counciling programs available inside of the institution aimed towards correcting the behavior and preparing them for reintegration into society...

Click to expand...

Actually, I should have put that question in quotes, to indicate that's what someone might ask. Personally, I don't believe that just being in jail rehabilitates anyone. If anything, I believe it just pisses the inmate off even more, so they have a built-up anger issue that they unleash onto their first victim after incarceration....

Let's hope there are programs inside the prison to provide the correction part. Isn't that why it's called the Department of Corrections anyway?

Jim675 · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

Manslaughter?

Accidental, reckless or negligent homicide?

Sexual assault? Offensive touching?

Embezlement? Con games? Home improvement schemes?

As for drug users, you've advocated recreational drug use, but what about narcotics?

People who sell to children?

People who intentionally or unintentionally mix bad batches and distribute?f

I personally am not a big fan of the death penalty. We simply make far too many false convictions (search Innocence Project and keep in mind its not even active in most states and only works in specific circumstances).

I do not believe in one-size fits all punishments, unless you're talking quantity. The 3 strikes concept is solid IMHO.

I was going to list punishments for your list above but most are as they are now. The exceptions:
narcotics - legal, I don't care if they shoot up gasoline
sell to children - kids can't "consent", therefore attempted murder
unintentionally mix bad batch - negligent homicide
intentionally mix bad batch - homicide
etc.

PT111 · May 23, 2008

imported post

(search Innocence Project and keep in mind its not even active in most states and only works in specific circumstances).

I have done a good bit of research on this and similar projects and find that the vast majority thatare used as examples are notproven to be innocent rather just that there could possibly be some doubt. I am always concerned about a witness that changes their story years later and claims that they were lying originally. The DNA innocent projects in very few cases ever show that someone is innocent rather that the possibility that some of the evidence was not avaialable at the time. In one case a man was set free because it was found via DNA that the victim had semen from more than one person. It did not matter that there was a great deal of other evidence supporting the conviction the fact that he was not able to bring that possibility up in the trial was the casue for granting a new trial.

In fact from what I could find that the famous 100+ prisoners set free by the Govenor because of DNA evidence, not a single case were they proven innocent rather the evidence just pointed out that it was possible someone else was involved.

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

PT111 wrote:

-- murder is usually a one-time deal, whether it be a crime of passion

Click to expand...

I would like to see some stats on this. One reason that murder is usually a one time deal is that they are caught and in jail rather than being able to commit more murders.

On a study from Washington State, the same one from which I quoted the other statistics of felons who were convicted, released and reconvicted, Murder had the lowest rate of recidivism at about 4.6%.

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

Jim675 wrote:

Wynder wrote:

Manslaughter?

Accidental, reckless or negligent homicide?

Sexual assault? Offensive touching?

Embezlement? Con games? Home improvement schemes?

As for drug users, you've advocated recreational drug use, but what about narcotics?

People who sell to children?

People who intentionally or unintentionally mix bad batches and distribute?f

Click to expand...

I personally am not a big fan of the death penalty. We simply make far too many false convictions (search Innocence Project and keep in mind its not even active in most states and only works in specific circumstances).

I do not believe in one-size fits all punishments, unless you're talking quantity. The 3 strikes concept is solid IMHO.

I was going to list punishments for your list above but most are as they are now. The exceptions:
narcotics - legal, I don't care if they shoot up gasoline
sell to children - kids can't "consent", therefore attempted murder
unintentionally mix bad batch - negligent homicide
intentionally mix bad batch - homicide
etc.

I like the attempted murder notion.

How about folks who shoot or smoke up and then drive impaired?

stephpd · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

stephpd wrote:

Personnally I could care less about rehabilatation. I want them to pay for having to be locked up. That's why I like my suggestion above. Work, no pay, no freedom. no electricity after sunset.

Click to expand...

That's the thing -- if you don't rehabilitate, then what you get after their sentence is finished is someone more likely to reoffend. Putting a band-aid on an arterial puncture wound is only going to take care of an immediate problem, but the long-term issue will still exist.

Would you concider my above idea rehab? If they have a skill it would be put to good use. Possibly future employment after jail by same employer if they do a good job.

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

stephpd wrote:

Wynder wrote:

stephpd wrote:

Personnally I could care less about rehabilatation. I want them to pay for having to be locked up. That's why I like my suggestion above. Work, no pay, no freedom. no electricity after sunset.

Click to expand...

That's the thing -- if you don't rehabilitate, then what you get after their sentence is finished is someone more likely to reoffend. Putting a band-aid on an arterial puncture wound is only going to take care of an immediate problem, but the long-term issue will still exist.

Click to expand...

Would you concider my above idea rehab? If they have a skill it would be put to good use. Possibly future employment after jail by same employer if they do a good job.

Honestly it would depend on their crime -- I think using the inmate as a source of income to subsidize their stay is an excellent idea (the cost to house a single inmate is expen$ive!), but if their offense was drug or alcohol related, they're ultimately going to need a program to help them to get clean and become productive.

If it was a case of disorderly conduct or a similar non-violent crime, I think a work program would be great, especially if there was a chance for employment after their encarceration.

stephpd · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

Jim675 wrote:

Wynder wrote:

Manslaughter?

Accidental, reckless or negligent homicide?

Sexual assault? Offensive touching?

Embezlement? Con games? Home improvement schemes?

As for drug users, you've advocated recreational drug use, but what about narcotics?

People who sell to children?

People who intentionally or unintentionally mix bad batches and distribute?f

Click to expand...

I personally am not a big fan of the death penalty. We simply make far too many false convictions (search Innocence Project and keep in mind its not even active in most states and only works in specific circumstances).

I do not believe in one-size fits all punishments, unless you're talking quantity. The 3 strikes concept is solid IMHO.

I was going to list punishments for your list above but most are as they are now. The exceptions:
narcotics - legal, I don't care if they shoot up gasoline
sell to children - kids can't "consent", therefore attempted murder
unintentionally mix bad batch - negligent homicide
intentionally mix bad batch - homicide
etc.

Click to expand...

I like the attempted murder notion.

How about folks who shoot or smoke up and then drive impaired?

Depraved indifference. Still need probable cause. 911 call and follow up of car all over the road. Hard to even prove at DUI stops unless they reek and comply to blood test.

This is going better then I had hoped !
Keep it up!

Thanks.

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

As an FYI, Steve, thanks for starting this topic -- I'll probably continue on it or start another at some point over the next few weeks or so... I just happen to have to write a research paper on this very topic for my Corrections course.

Cue-Ball · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

I like the attempted murder notion.

How about folks who shoot or smoke up and then drive impaired?

Impaired driving is dangerous and reckless. It doesn't matter if they are impaired because they're drunk, because they're high, because they're talking on a cell phone, or because they're 85 and half blind. We need to hold people responsible for their actions when they endanger someone, but do not confuse the action of drinking or doing drugs with the action of driving dangerously. Each of those actions is completely independent from the other. Someone could smoke a pound of weed and harmlessly sit in their basement eating brownies all night while another might be completely sober but fall asleep at the wheel and hit a bus full of nuns.

stephpd · May 23, 2008

imported post

Cue-Ball wrote:

Wynder wrote:

I like the attempted murder notion.

How about folks who shoot or smoke up and then drive impaired?

Click to expand...

Impaired driving is dangerous and reckless. It doesn't matter if they are impaired because they're drunk, because they're high, because they're talking on a cell phone, or because they're 85 and half blind. We need to hold people responsible for their actions when they endanger someone, but do not confuse the action of drinking or doing drugs with the action of driving dangerously. Each of those actions is completely independent from the other. Someone could smoke a pound of weed and harmlessly sit in their basement eating brownies all night while another might be completely sober but fall asleep at the wheel and hit a bus full of nuns.

LOL
+1

I agree. See my post above. Depraved indifference.
But you were funnier.:lol:

Thanks

stephpd · May 23, 2008

imported post

Wynder wrote:

As an FYI, Steve, thanks for starting this topic -- I'll probably continue on it or start another at some point over the next few weeks or so... I just happen to have to write a research paper on this very topic for my Corrections course.

I totally understand. Thanks, I'll be here all weekend. Don't forget to tip your waitresses.:celebrate

dave_in_delaware · May 23, 2008

imported post

stephpd wrote:

... Don't forget to tip your waitresses.

Is that anything like cow tipping?

Wynder · May 23, 2008

imported post

dave_in_delaware wrote:

stephpd wrote:

... Don't forget to tip your waitresses.

Click to expand...

Is that anything like cow tipping?

Did you just call Steve a cow? :shock::shock:

What's your idea's about crime control

Regular Member

Regular Member

State Researcher

Campaign Veteran

State Researcher

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

State Researcher

State Researcher

Regular Member

State Researcher

Regular Member

State Researcher

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

State Researcher