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Thread: Not a Permit

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Guys, I'm brand new to this forum, just started reading here last night, and I see many examples of knowlege here about legal things. I am very supprised to read over and over again the phrase "concealed carry permit" or the like. This, in my understanding, is incorrect. It is a concealed carry LICENSE. A permit is something you hold to allow you to do something that is a privelege. A License is something you hold when it is your Right. I am not permitted to carry a handgun concealed... It is my right to carry a handgun concealed. It isn't your right to drive a car, it is a privelege, therefore your driver's licencse isn't actually a license, it is in reality a permit...

    Please let me know if I've been misinformed and understanding this incorrectly.

    But please, lets at least call our CCW a Licence, not a permit.
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    Regular Member Bobarino's Avatar
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    Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
    per·mit1 Audio Help [v. per-mit; n. pur-mit, per-mit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -mit·ted, -mit·ting, noun
    –verb (used with object)
    1. to allow to do something: Permit me to explain.
    2. to allow to be done or occur: The law does not permit the sale of such drugs.
    3. to tolerate; agree to: a law permitting Roman Catholicism in England.
    4. to afford opportunity for, or admit of: vents to permit the escape of gases.
    –verb (used without object)
    5. to grant permission; allow liberty to do something.
    6. to afford opportunity or possibility: Write when time permits.
    7. to allow or admit (usually fol. by of): statements that permit of no denial.
    –noun
    8. an authoritative or official certificate of permission; license: a fishing permit.
    9. a written order granting special permission to do something.
    10. permission.


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    i·cense Audio Help [lahy-suhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -censed, -cens·ing.
    –noun
    1. formal permission from a governmental or other constituted authority to do something, as to carry on some business or profession.
    2. a certificate, tag, plate, etc., giving proof of such permission; official permit: a driver's license.
    3. permission to do or not to do something.
    4. intentional deviation from rule, convention, or fact, as for the sake of literary or artistic effect: poetic license.
    5. exceptional freedom allowed in a special situation.
    6. excessive or undue freedom or liberty.
    7. licentiousness.
    8. the legal right to use a patent owned by another.
    –verb (used with object)
    9. to grant authoritative permission or license to.

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    it can go either way. such a semantic argument is really not worth getting a tizzy over.

    a license does not HAVE relate to something that is a right. i have a driver's license, a business license, and and private pilot's license. neither of which are rights. CONCEALING a pistol is not a right as per an old, court case that i can't recollect at the moment. it was determined that the right to "bear" arms did not apply to concealing firearms. permit and license can very well be used interchangeably.

    welcome to the forums

    Bobby

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    LOL, here we go with word quibbles.

    You have a right to free speech, press, to worship, to vote... do you have a license or a permit that you bought for any of those? In my opinion, call it whatever you want, but if you need either a permit or a license to do something, it's either not a right, OR, as I think in this case... it's a right that's being infringed.
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    Yeah, I have to agree with Shotgun here - if it's my right to carry concealed, how can it be that it's illegal for me to do so without obtaining permission from the state first? Shall-issue or not, a right isn't "licensed."

    Now, as to whether this situation is right or legal in view of the state constitution is another matter...

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    In WA it is a CPL, Concealed Pistol License.

    Additionally, the license, as it says, is for concealing a pistol, it's not needed for carying a pistol.

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    Spydertat,

    Welcome to the board!

    It is a liscence, it's good to point that out to people who don't know any better occasionaly. Like people who refer to "our CCW" when they should know it's "our CPL" But you're kinda preaching to the chior here.

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    So why was it change from a Permit to a License a few years back?

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Someone wrote in a different thread a few months ago that a permit can be revoked by administrative action, but a license can only be revoked by judicial action. I don't think the poster included a cite in the post, so I don't know if is a factual statement. Anyone else have knowledge of this?

    Post # 200. WOOHOO!

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    deanf wrote:
    So why was it change from a Permit to a License a few years back?
    It wasn't so much about the permit vs. license portion, but pertained to theword "weapon". This allowed a broad interpretation, and could be construed as allowing other items besides a handgun.

    By changing it to "pistol"the loophole was closed.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Johnny Law wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    So why was it change from a Permit to a License a few years back?
    It wasn't so much about the permit vs. license portion, but pertained to theword "weapon". This allowed a broad interpretation, and could be construed as allowing other items besides a handgun.

    By changing it to "pistol"the loophole was closed.
    Sort of sad that it is considered a loophole when a law abiding person can be trusted to carry a pistol but not another weapon. How exactly am I going to do more damage or be more of a threat to society with a hunting knife than I am with a handgun?

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, this is exactly the clarification I was seeking. I have learned so much in the last 2 days since I found this forum. Now I'm working up the nerve to OC myself. My wife doesn't like the idea, (I think she's worried about the looks I'd get)but I think I'd try it first without her around. By the way, I also have a CPL and have been carying that way for 14 years.
    Certified Glock Armorer

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    A 1911 that works properly is as rare as a Glock that doesn't.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Take it from someone who's read all various incarnations of RCW 9.41.070 from 1959 on. Though the term was "Concealed Weapon License", it was only a licensure term. At no point did the license allow you to carry other weapons other than pistols, like it is in Arizona, Florida, Delaware, etc etc etc.

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Take it from someone who's read all various incarnations of RCW 9.41.070 from 1959 on. Though the term was "Concealed Weapon License", it was only a licensure term. At no point did the license allow you to carry other weapons other than pistols, like it is in Arizona, Florida, Delaware, etc etc etc.
    It didn't allow it but it sure did imply it by the virtue of the name.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I hear most folks sayin' OC is a right, CC is a privilege. I think I can go along with that. We have a basic human right to bear arms, but not necessarily to conceal them.

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    t3rmin wrote:
    I hear most folks sayin' OC is a right, CC is a privilege. I think I can go along with that. We have a basic human right to bear arms, but not necessarily to conceal them.
    What part of "Shall not be infringed" is unclear to you? I don't think CC is a privledge. The right to keep and bear arms has no stipulations set upon it in either Constitution, it is the courts that have determined that restrictions that are for the benefit and safety of society are OK. I say they are wrong.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Now, I'm not going to get into the debate of obtaining permission from a government authority; however, I would like to chime in on using dictionary.com or m-w.com for getting definitions pertaining to matters of law.

    In any case, I pulled this book off of my shelf and these are the definitions from Black's Law Dictionary (Eighth Edition):

    License: A permission, usually revokable, to commit some act that would otherwise be unlawful.
    Permit: A certificate evidencing permission; a license.
    They both seem to reference the word 'license', which is my personal preference.

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    joeroket wrote:
    What part of "Shall not be infringed" is unclear to you? I don't think CC is a privledge. The right to keep and bear arms has no stipulations set upon it in either Constitution, it is the courts that have determined that restrictions that are for the benefit and safety of society are OK. I say they are wrong.
    You're right. Let me correct myself.

    The current arrangement/mindset in many states where OC is considered an implicit or explicit right, and CC is licensed, is more agreeable to me than, say, the other way around. It, I think, shows at least some semblance of an understanding about proper arms-bearing.

    I support no regulation/restriction on the RKBA whatsoever.

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    t3rmin wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    What part of "Shall not be infringed" is unclear to you? I don't think CC is a privledge. The right to keep and bear arms has no stipulations set upon it in either Constitution, it is the courts that have determined that restrictions that are for the benefit and safety of society are OK. I say they are wrong.
    You're right. Let me correct myself.

    The current arrangement/mindset in many states where OC is considered an implicit or explicit right, and CC is licensed, is more agreeable to me than, say, the other way around. It, I think, shows at least some semblance of an understanding about proper arms-bearing.

    I support no regulation/restriction on the RKBA whatsoever.
    Ahhh OK, I see where you are coming from now.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    t3rmin wrote:
    I hear most folks sayin' OC is a right, CC is a privilege. I think I can go along with that. We have a basic human right to bear arms, but not necessarily to conceal them.
    What part of "Shall not be infringed" is unclear to you? I don't think CC is a privledge. The right to keep and bear arms has no stipulations set upon it in either Constitution, it is the courts that have determined that restrictions that are for the benefit and safety of society are OK. I say they are wrong.
    +1000000

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    +1000000
    Not fair, I've already been vindicated! :P

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    t3rmin wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    +1000000
    Not fair, I've already been vindicated! :P
    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate...:P

    TJ

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