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Thread: My ONLY negative OC experience in 10+ years...

  1. #1
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    I've been carrying openly in NOVA, specifically Reston-Herndon-Sterling area, for over ten years. In all that time, I've only had one negative experience. This happened three years ago, but I just found you guys. ;-)

    I was at the IHOP in Sterling on Rte. 7 on a Saturday morning. I've been having breakfast there, and carrying openly, several times a week since the day they opened. I don't order anymore, they just bring my usual when I sit down. Great people there, by the way.

    Having finished my meal, I qued up to pay. For those that don't know, it's a pay at the front affair there. So I'm standing about three deep in the line and someone leans on my right side, from the rear, or about my 4 o'clock. I shoot right, so my Sig was holstered on that side, and someone was now leaning on me, making contact from thigh to shoulder.

    Needless to say that I was pretty concerned because the pressure didn't immediately disappear, as it would if someone had fallen or been pushed into me. I turned to look and took a half-step left 'cause that was all the room I had in the crowd by the register. As I move left, so does the guy leaning up against me, sustaining the fill-side contact.

    As soon as we make eye contact he says "Should I be worried?" Stunned and confused (just gave up caffeine the day before) I replied "Excuse me?!?"

    He repeats the question and adds "I see a gun, but I don't see a badge." I stated that was because I have a gun and I don't have a badge. He immediately commanded me to show him some ID. I refused and he demanded again that I produce my ID. Lather, rinse, repeat. You all know the drill, I'm sure. All the while, he's still pinning my gun with his body and I have no room to move.

    Near the end of this merry-go-round, he says he's with FBI and repeats the demand for ID. When I again refused, for the seventh time (I counted) and demanded that he show me his credentials, HE refused. Then he upps the ante saying show him some ID or he's going to call 911. I twice more demanded to see his credentials while he continued to demand that I produce ID. He caved first when I said that if he didn't produce his creds, I was gonna call 911 and whipped out my cell and started dialing. After he flashed his creds, I showed him my license, which he removed from my wallet and put in his pocket. He's still leaning on me, by the way.

    He then orders me to exit the restaurant so he can call for a local cruiser to pick me up. I refused, on the grounds that I hadn't yet paid, which would be illegal. He said "they'll wait." I replied that so would I, and so would he.

    Apparently, my bald defiance and icy calm demeanor made him decide that it would be a bad idea to try to frog-march me out the door, so we waited untill I had paid. As he was following me out the door, he asked "Is that thing loaded?" I stopped dead in my tracks. "Absolutely" I replied in a low tone, "and chambered." No response to that one...

    When we got outside, he whips out his cell phone and orders me to go stand by a nearby sign, away from the door. I complied and leaned against the sign. Doing my best James Dean, I lit a cigarette and waited while he called 911. The rest of the story is best as dialogue, so...

    "Police emergency," he says.
    "I have a man here with a gun!"
    Pause.
    "No, Ma'am, he's not brandishing it..."
    Pause.
    "Well, it's in a holster on his hip."
    Pause.
    "No, he's not law enforcement."
    Pause.
    "Yes, ma'am..."
    Pause.
    "Yes,ma'am"
    Pause.
    "No, ma'am."
    Pause.
    "Agent -----, with the FBI..."
    Pause.
    "No, ma'am, I don't think we need an officer to respond. "

    At this point I leaned forward and took the cell phone from him and told the operator that I was the victim, and I wanted an officer to respond immediately. I then hung up and returned his phone.

    The cruiser arrived about a minute later. The nice deputy questioned us both, and then pointedly and loudly asked if I wanted to file assault charges. I stated that I feared reprisals, and asked him to just document the case, which he did.

    Sorry for the long narrative, but the tale begs detail. Otherwise, it would just be too much to believe.

    Thoughts? Comments?

    Caltain aka Dan Brooks

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    Well done and well written. Welcome! And good call on the assault (with battery).

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

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    Nicely done, sir!

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    Probably an FBI agent who transfered to the area from someplace like NJ.

    Not used to the sheeple carrying as well.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    It's of course too late, but a politely worded letter to his agency about the treatment you got (physical restraint, confiscation of your property) making the agency look bad would also have been in order.

    IANAL, but I thought even FBI (just another federal agency, mostly) had to have articulable suspicion in order to pull jurisdiction. i'll have to research that one more, just so I know.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    If a stranger starts leaning against me, you can bet that I'll give a nice 'push' back to get them off of me especially if they haven't identified themselves as LEO.



    Just a question I have...what jurisdiction does the FBI have to 'investigate' crimes that are not at the federal level? I can assume the only thing they can do is call 911 like any other person on the street.

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    caltain wrote:
    I've been carrying openly in NOVA, specifically Reston-Herndon-Sterling area, for over ten years. In all that time, I've only had one negative experience. This happened three years ago, but I just found you guys. ;-)

    I was at the IHOP in Sterling on Rte. 7 on a Saturday morning. I've been having breakfast there, and carrying openly, several times a week since the day they opened. I don't order anymore, they just bring my usual when I sit down. Great people there, by the way.

    Having finished my meal, I qued up to pay. For those that don't know, it's a pay at the front affair there. So I'm standing about three deep in the line and someone leans on my right side, from the rear, or about my 4 o'clock. I shoot right, so my Sig was holstered on that side, and someone was now leaning on me, making contact from thigh to shoulder.

    Needless to say that I was pretty concerned because the pressure didn't immediately disappear, as it would if someone had fallen or been pushed into me. I turned to look and took a half-step left 'cause that was all the room I had in the crowd by the register. As I move left, so does the guy leaning up against me, sustaining the fill-side contact.

    As soon as we make eye contact he says "Should I be worried?" Stunned and confused (just gave up caffeine the day before) I replied "Excuse me?!?"

    He repeats the question and adds "I see a gun, but I don't see a badge." I stated that was because I have a gun and I don't have a badge. He immediately commanded me to show him some ID. I refused and he demanded again that I produce my ID. Lather, rinse, repeat. You all know the drill, I'm sure. All the while, he's still pinning my gun with his body and I have no room to move.

    Near the end of this merry-go-round, he says he's with FBI and repeats the demand for ID. When I again refused, for the seventh time (I counted) and demanded that he show me his credentials, HE refused. Then he upps the ante saying show him some ID or he's going to call 911. I twice more demanded to see his credentials while he continued to demand that I produce ID. He caved first when I said that if he didn't produce his creds, I was gonna call 911 and whipped out my cell and started dialing. After he flashed his creds, I showed him my license, which he removed from my wallet and put in his pocket. He's still leaning on me, by the way.

    He then orders me to exit the restaurant so he can call for a local cruiser to pick me up. I refused, on the grounds that I hadn't yet paid, which would be illegal. He said "they'll wait." I replied that so would I, and so would he.

    Apparently, my bald defiance and icy calm demeanor made him decide that it would be a bad idea to try to frog-march me out the door, so we waited untill I had paid. As he was following me out the door, he asked "Is that thing loaded?" I stopped dead in my tracks. "Absolutely" I replied in a low tone, "and chambered." No response to that one...

    When we got outside, he whips out his cell phone and orders me to go stand by a nearby sign, away from the door. I complied and leaned against the sign. Doing my best James Dean, I lit a cigarette and waited while he called 911. The rest of the story is best as dialogue, so...

    "Police emergency," he says.
    "I have a man here with a gun!"
    Pause.
    "No, Ma'am, he's not brandishing it..."
    Pause.
    "Well, it's in a holster on his hip."
    Pause.
    "No, he's not law enforcement."
    Pause.
    "Yes, ma'am..."
    Pause.
    "Yes,ma'am"
    Pause.
    "No, ma'am."
    Pause.
    "Agent -----, with the FBI..."
    Pause.
    "No, ma'am, I don't think we need an officer to respond. "

    At this point I leaned forward and took the cell phone from him and told the operator that I was the victim, and I wanted an officer to respond immediately. I then hung up and returned his phone.

    The cruiser arrived about a minute later. The nice deputy questioned us both, and then pointedly and loudly asked if I wanted to file assault charges. I stated that I feared reprisals, and asked him to just document the case, which he did.

    Sorry for the long narrative, but the tale begs detail. Otherwise, it would just be too much to believe.

    Thoughts? Comments?

    Caltain aka Dan Brooks

    caltain , 1st off, WELCOME to OCDO and thank you for sharing that story with us.

    You are a True Hero in the sense that you don't easily take crap from ANYONE.

    "I stated that I feared reprisals, ..", when I read thisI was sad. Why is it that we have to fear the Government when the Government should fear "the People". ESPECIALLY when he treated you that way.

    I would have said YES to file an Assault Charge. Absolutely when a Local PD Officer (which I believe HATES the FBI), suggests it. I would love to have been a fly on the wall at that Precinct if you would have filed the charge.

    The whole PD would have gone:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrateYES,YE S,YES:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate.

    TJ




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    Did the guy even produce identification when the cop arrived? If not, I probably would have pushed to have him arrested for impersonating a federal officer at that point.....but I do have a good strong dose of "*******" in me most times.

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    caltain, first welcome to OCDO and thanks for sharing your experience. I think everyone else has already made the same points I would have, such as definitely filing charges. (There are also Federal Laws against reprisals as well).

    I like how assertive you were and how you maintained control of the situation.

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    Sorry, I thyink you should have asked the police to charge him and you still SHOULD NOW file a complaint with the FBI - I once filed a complaint against a senior executive with the FBI - that guy is now senior executive with the FAA

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    Would the "leaning" bit qualify as an illegal search? And him pocketing your permit certainly is an illegal seizure under color of law... Get some paper on this guy...

  12. #12
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    I think the "leaning bit" qualifies as battery, as in "Assault and Battery".

    Welcome aboard, Caltain. I hope you are or will be a member of VCDL!

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    Lot's of errors on his part and a few should have done's on yours, but you did comport yourself quite well. I'll just run over a few things in random fashion.

    You are under no obligation to present an ID whereas he most certainly is. If he says he is a law enforcement officer of any kind, he must be able to prove it or you are in no way obligated to respond to or obey any of his orders. He could be a fraud.. how would you know?

    When he commanded you to wait while he made his 911 call, once again, you are not under any obligation to do any such thing. If I an not mistaken, the FBI has no jurisdiction in such matters, so you could have, and should have, been in the driver's seat the entire time.

    His leaning on you, and continued leaning on you, is indeed assault and battery and could easily have resulted in his serious injury since would have been within your rights to repell the threat immediately.. that is, once you had determined that his contact was not a mistake. Once again, you don't know this guy from Adam and have no idea whether or not he was planning a play for your weapon.

    So yes, I would report this incident to the proper authorities if, for no other reason, they might wish to educate their "agents" in regards to Virginia law and her citizens' rights.

    In all, you did nicely.. congrats.



    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Thank you all for the friendly welcome! In not yet a member of VCDL, but I plan to be in the near future.

    If you'll take notice, my post was timestamped 6:45am. I'm not an early riser. Well, not that early anyway. I did the whole post in about thirty minutes, typing with my two thumbs on my iPhone. My other eight thumbs were in no way involved! I am disabled. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia almost 20 years ago. Additionally, I have a spine full of bad disks, almost literally every other one, plus three blown disks in my cervical spine (neck). I go through rough patches several times a year in which I get very little, or no sleep. At the moment, I'm going on 2.33 hours of sleep since Tuesday morning at 8:30am. The upshot of this is that I told you all about the incident, but not the aftermath.

    Someone touching you, like Agent Leaner, can sometimes constitute assault, but only if you fear that the person may do you harm. As I happen to hold a third degree black belt in karate, I knew that I could have mopped the floor with the guy, if he'd taken things to a physical level. Battery is the legal term for what most people think of when they hear assault. Battery is the actual striking of another person without the use of a weapon, and with malicious intent.

    I told the officer that I was afraid of reprisal to insure that he did file an incident report. I just wanted an official documentation of the event to avoid a he-said-he-said situation.

    The leaning on me did not constitute an illegal search, but it could be argued that it did constitute unlawful seizure, in that I was prevented from leaving. Moot point. I never tried to leave, and he therefore never seized my person. I would STRONGLY advise against pushing him away, as this does constitute battery on a federal agent. Just move away if you can.

    Turns out that he was passing through on vacation. He was stationed at the New York field office and was unaware of VA statutes. As a Feeb, a LEO he has the authority to question, detain and arrest whenever and wherever he is, provided that he believes a crime has, is or will immanently occur.

    I'll post the rest of the aftermath in a couple of hours. I've gotta go lie down.

    Caltain aka Dan Brooks

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    Well the FBI's main function is to protect the US from foreign and domestic criminals.

    I believe their jurisdiction is pretty much the entire US.



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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Well the FBI's main function is to protect the US from foreign and domestic criminals.

    I believe their jurisdiction is pretty much the entire US.


    And so is mine according to "The oath of allegiance " when I became a U.S Citizen back in Jan 2008. But I am not a Cop or a Fed, etc.

    (Sarcasm)So does this mean that I should be able to carry EVERYWHERE in the U.S???(Sarcasm)


    Oath of Allegiance for Naturalized Citizens

    Oath of Allegiance


    The oath of allegiance is:

    "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."





    TJ

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    Wow that is a pretty crazy encounter. I am from Herndon too by the way. I love living here except for the darn traffic haha Welcome to the site

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    An interesting contact technique on the part of the special agent. Physically leaning on someone without showing official credentials seems like a quick way to get shot.

    Did he pay for his food order? Did he return your license?

    An illustration of the pointlessness of the "21 foot" rule. In public, there are going to be lots of people inside your 21 foot radius.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Well the FBI's main function is to protect the US from foreign and domestic criminals.

    I believe their jurisdiction is pretty much the entire US.

    I just did a little looking around at the FBI's mission and charter and it seems that the actions of this "agent" were outside of same. The FBI is not in the business of or responsible for arresting any sort of behavior visited upon our friend.. or so it seems in their statements. In fact, the opposite could be construed since one of their mission statements is to;
    Code:
    "deter civil rights violations through aggressive investigations 
    and proactive measures."
    This would seem to indicate that if they saw a citizen being hassled while
    carrying a defensive weapon, they would have the authority to stop such
    actions against the citizen post haste since the "bearing" of arms is most
    certainly a fundamental civil right.. a real one.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Hurray! Slept another whole hour! It's not much, but I'll probably be good to go for another half a day on that. Seems that I've adapted to the condition somewhat.

    Okay, here's the short version of the aftermath.

    I contacted the Washington field office the same day and filed a verbal complaint. The nice FBI folks of the nations capital took this VERY seriously, as they should have. They called back with a preliminary result of their investigation in just over two hours. This wiener had potentially violated my second, fourth and fifth amendment rights, and at least 17 department policies or directives, at first investigation. The final number was higher, but I never got the final count.

    They politely inquired if I thought I might wish to file suit, or allow them to deal with the matter directly. As I am always willing to hand the man in the hole a bigger shovel, I said that we'd start with letting them try to resolve the situation.

    The agent was given three months suspension w/o pay, and three months suspension with pay. He also got to then return to the academy for six months of remedial training. I also got to place a victim's impact statement permanently in his personnel file. My idea, thank you very much ;-)

    Now, why didn't I file a law suit? Because once the lawyers get involved, it's about money, not about fixing the problem. I didn't want the agent to be bitter, I wanted him fixed and bitter. Hence the route I took. I could have always filed suit in the end, and still can. They never even asked me my intention again, and I signed no documents except my initial complaint statement and the VI statement that I wrote for his file. I felt that since I was uninjired and not even late for work, that this was a fair resolution to the problem. He gave up a year of his professional life and any hope of advancement for that stunt.

    All that said, I know that he acted with the best of intentions to proctect his family and the public from a perceived threat. He just didn't do it the right way. I'd rather have someone that wants to do good than someone that wants power fighting in the trenches, as heart will often carry a man further than brains.

    I did get my license back from the deputy that responded. The agent gave it to him before making his statement at the scene.

    I also assume that he paid for his meal, but I have no proof. That wasn't the part of the deal I was interested in...;-)

    Hope that clears up the questions that may be lingering...

    Caltain aka Dan Brooks

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    caltain wrote:
    Hurray! Slept another whole hour! It's not much, but I'll probably be good to go for another half a day on that. Seems that I've adapted to the condition somewhat.

    Okay, here's the short version of the aftermath.

    I contacted the Washington field office the same day and filed a verbal complaint. The nice FBI folks of the nations capital took this VERY seriously, as they should have. They called back with a preliminary result of their investigation in just over two hours. This wiener had potentially violated my second, fourth and fifth amendment rights, and at least 17 department policies or directives, at first investigation. The final number was higher, but I never got the final count.

    They politely inquired if I thought I might wish to file suit, or allow them to deal with the matter directly. As I am always willing to hand the man in the hole a bigger shovel, I said that we'd start with letting them try to resolve the situation.

    The agent was given three months suspension w/o pay, and three months suspension with pay. He also got to then return to the academy for six months of remedial training. I also got to place a victim's impact statement permanently in his personnel file. My idea, thank you very much ;-)

    Now, why didn't I file a law suit? Because once the lawyers get involved, it's about money, not about fixing the problem. I didn't want the agent to be bitter, I wanted him fixed and bitter. Hence the route I took. I could have always filed suit in the end, and still can. They never even asked me my intention again, and I signed no documents except my initial complaint statement and the VI statement that I wrote for his file. I felt that since I was uninjired and not even late for work, that this was a fair resolution to the problem. He gave up a year of his professional life and any hope of advancement for that stunt.

    All that said, I know that he acted with the best of intentions to proctect his family and the public from a perceived threat. He just didn't do it the right way. I'd rather have someone that wants to do good than someone that wants power fighting in the trenches, as heart will often carry a man further than brains.

    I did get my license back from the deputy that responded. The agent gave it to him before making his statement at the scene.

    I also assume that he paid for his meal, but I have no proof. That wasn't the part of the deal I was interested in...;-)

    Hope that clears up the questions that may be lingering...

    Caltain aka Dan Brooks

    Hero, Hero, HERO:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

    The steps you and they took are good and hopefully will make him a better Agent. I'm glad he still has a job.

    Law suits can be nasty and will just lead to further problems with him and his family, financially.

    Good Job.

    TJ


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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    And so is mine according to "The oath of allegiance " when I became a U.S Citizen back in Jan 2008. But I am not a Cop or a Fed, etc.

    (Sarcasm)So does this mean that I should be able to carry EVERYWHERE in the U.S???(Sarcasm)


    Oath of Allegiance for Naturalized Citizens

    Oath of Allegiance


    The oath of allegiance is:

    "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."





    TJ
    UTOC-45-44 -

    I am surprised that you did not also highlight " ...that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law...".

    I'm a Federal Gov't civilian employee, so I took a similar oath. While I may NOT be required by law to bear arms, it is certainly my right to KEEP and BEAR arms!

    I'm glad that he FBI took the steps it did against that agent. I think too many times in the USG actions do not have consequences. This story helps restore my faith a little. Now if only I can get the City of Alexandria to do the same against its ignorant police officers.

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    XD Owner wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    And so is mine according to "The oath of allegiance " when I became a U.S Citizen back in Jan 2008. But I am not a Cop or a Fed, etc.

    (Sarcasm)So does this mean that I should be able to carry EVERYWHERE in the U.S???(Sarcasm)


    Oath of Allegiance for Naturalized Citizens

    Oath of Allegiance


    The oath of allegiance is:

    "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."





    TJ
    UTOC-45-44 -

    I am surprised that you did not also highlight " ...that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law...".

    I'm a Federal Gov't civilian employee, so I took a similar oath. While I may NOT be required by law to bear arms, it is certainly my right to KEEP and BEAR arms!

    I'm glad that he FBI took the steps it did against that agent. I think too many times in the USG actions do not have consequences. This story helps restore my faith a little. Now if only I can get the City of Alexandria to do the same against its ignorant police officers.
    You are right. I just took that line for granted since I carry EVERY day 24/7.:celebrate

    TJ

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    I commend you for keeping your cool and handling this so well. I don't know if I would have done the same. I think his punishment fit what he did and it shows a lot that you didn't file a suit. Thats if his living in NY isn't punishment enough, for me it would be!

    Thanks for sharing your story.

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    XD Owner wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    And so is mine according to "The oath of allegiance " when I became a U.S Citizen back in Jan 2008. But I am not a Cop or a Fed, etc.

    (Sarcasm)So does this mean that I should be able to carry EVERYWHERE in the U.S???(Sarcasm)


    Oath of Allegiance for Naturalized Citizens

    Oath of Allegiance


    The oath of allegiance is:

    "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."





    TJ
    UTOC-45-44 -

    I am surprised that you did not also highlight " ...that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law...".

    I'm a Federal Gov't civilian employee, so I took a similar oath. While I may NOT be required by law to bear arms, it is certainly my right to KEEP and BEAR arms!

    I'm glad that he FBI took the steps it did against that agent. I think too many times in the USG actions do not have consequences. This story helps restore my faith a little. Now if only I can get the City of Alexandria to do the same against its ignorant police officers.
    You are right. I just took that line for granted since I carry EVERY day 24/7.:celebrate

    TJ
    May I ask, sir.. where are you from before becoming an American citizen?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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