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Thread: UTA rules

  1. #1
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    I notice that UTA lists as item 26 in their rider rules http://rideuta.com/ridingUTA/riderRules.aspx

    "Dangerous weapons are prohibited on UTA buses unless under the direct control of a law enforcement officer or private security personnel licensed by the State."

    Is this not a violation of Utah's preemption law?



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    Good question - often times state preemption only preempts localities - how far does Utah's law go?

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    According to what I know you can't carry on UTA without a Concealed Carry Permit. That is all I know. Now if UTA rules include private security then I'd be fine because I have my Active Armed Guard License.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    My guess is that they are in violation of state law. The Utah Transit Authority receives funding via my tax dollars, so to me that makes them a state entity.

    76-10-500. Uniform law.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or
    state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.

    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.

    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Outsider wrote:
    According to what I know you can't carry on UTA without a Concealed Carry Permit. That is all I know.
    What state statute makes this so?

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    Mike wrote:
    Outsider wrote:
    According to what I know you can't carry on UTA without a Concealed Carry Permit. That is all I know.
    What state statute makes this so?
    I'm trying to look it up online but I believe I read it in the UCA at work. If I don't find it and someone doesn't beat me to it, then I'll post it on Tuesday. The book is much easier then the website.

    EDIT:
    76-10-1503. Definitions.
    As used in this act:
    (1) "Bus" means any passenger bus or coach or other motor vehicle having a seating capacity of 15 or more passengers operated by a bus company for the purpose of carrying passengers or cargo for hire and includes a transit vehicle, as defined in Section 17B-2a-802, of a public transit district under Title 17B, Chapter 2a, Part 8, Public Transit District Act.
    (2) "Bus company" or "company" means any person, group of persons or corporation providing for-hire transportation to passengers or cargo by bus upon the highways in the state, including passengers and cargo in interstate or intrastate travel. These terms also include local public bodies, public transit districts, municipalities, public corporations, boards and commissions established under the laws of the state providing transportation to passengers or cargo by bus upon the highways in the state, whether or not for hire.
    (3) "Charter" means a group of persons, pursuant to a common purpose and under a single contract, and at a fixed charge in accordance with a bus company's tariff, which has acquired the exclusive use of a bus to travel together to a specified destination or destinations.
    (4) "Passenger" means any person transported or served by a bus company, including persons accompanying or meeting another being transported, any person shipping or receiving cargo and any person purchasing a ticket or receiving a pass.
    (5) "Terminal" means a bus station or depot or any other facility operated or leased by or operated on behalf of a bus company and includes a transit facility, as defined in Section 17B-2a-802, of a public transit district under Title 17B, Chapter 2a, Part 8, Public Transit District Act. This term includes a reasonable area immediately adjacent to any designated stop along the route traveled by any bus operated by a bus company and parking lots or areas adjacent to terminals.

    76-10-1507. Exclusion of persons without bona fide business from terminal -- Firearms and dangerous materials -- Surveillance devices and seizure of offending materials -- Detention of violators -- Private security personnel.
    (1) (a) In order to provide for the safety, welfare and comfort of passengers, a bus company may refuse admission to terminals to a person not having bona fide business within the terminal.
    (b) The refusal may not be inconsistent or contrary to state or federal laws or regulations, or to an ordinance of the political subdivision in which the terminal is located.
    (c) An authorized bus company representative may require a person in a terminal to identify himself and state his business.
    (d) Failure to comply with a request under Subsection (1)(c) or to state an acceptable business purpose is grounds for the representative to request that the person depart the terminal.
    (e) A person who refuses to comply with a request made under Subsection (1)(d) is guilty of a class C misdemeanor.
    (2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) The prohibition of Subsection (2)(a) does not apply to individuals listed in Subsection 76-10-1504(4).
    (c) The bus company may employ reasonable means, including mechanical, electronic or x-ray devices to detect the items concealed in baggage or upon the person of a passenger.
    (d) Upon the discovery of an item referred to in Subsection (2)(a), the company may obtain possession and retain custody of the item until it is transferred to a peace officer.
    (3) (a) An authorized bus company representative may detain within a terminal or bus any person violating the provisions of this section for a reasonable time until law enforcement authorities arrive.
    (b) The detention does not constitute unlawful imprisonment and neither the bus company nor the representative is civilly or criminally liable upon grounds of unlawful imprisonment or assault, provided that only reasonable and necessary force is exercised against the detained person.
    (4) (a) A bus company may employ or contract for private security personnel.
    (b) The personnel may:
    (i) detain within a terminal or bus a person violating this section for a reasonable time until law enforcement authorities arrive; and
    (ii) use reasonable and necessary force in subduing or detaining the person.

    So basically I believe CCP exempts you from all laws such as these. I could be wrong. I'm sure others more familiar can answer this better then I have.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    According to Mitch Vilos' book, Utah Gun Law, this would appear to be correct. Third degree felony for a concealed firearm on UTA without a permit. Concealing anywhere without a permit is stupid to begin with.

    (2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    OK, I agree with SGT J - it appears that UTA has no more restrictions that the rest of Utah, just a higher penalty for unlawful concealing.

    One of you Utah folks going to contact the agency to ask them to correct their website?

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    I would but since I don't use UTA not really my place, in my opinion.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    Mike wrote:
    OK, I agree with SGT J - it appears that UTA has no more restrictions that the rest of Utah, just a higher penalty for unlawful concealing.

    One of you Utah folks going to contact the agency to ask them to correct their website?
    So, is this like the schools where only those with a CCP may carry at all or does the law allow open carry without a concealed permit? If so, they need to change their rules.

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    rpyne wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    OK, I agree with SGT J - it appears that UTA has no more restrictions that the rest of Utah, just a higher penalty for unlawful concealing.

    One of you Utah folks going to contact the agency to ask them to correct their website?
    So, is this like the schools where only those with a CCP may carry at all or does the law allow open carry without a concealed permit? If so, they need to change their rules.
    Read the statutes quoted above.

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    It's all been said...

    Nothing to add.

    With a permit I can either OC or CC.

    TJ









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    Mike wrote:
    rpyne wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    OK, I agree with SGT J - it appears that UTA has no more restrictions that the rest of Utah, just a higher penalty for unlawful concealing.

    One of you Utah folks going to contact the agency to ask them to correct their website?
    So, is this like the schools where only those with a CCP may carry at all or does the law allow open carry without a concealed permit? If so, they need to change their rules.
    Read the statutes quoted above.
    "(2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony."

    Okay, the question is in the sentence strucure. Does that "concealed" refer only to "dangerous weapon" or to "
    dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices"?


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    rpyne wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    rpyne wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    OK, I agree with SGT J - it appears that UTA has no more restrictions that the rest of Utah, just a higher penalty for unlawful concealing.

    One of you Utah folks going to contact the agency to ask them to correct their website?
    So, is this like the schools where only those with a CCP may carry at all or does the law allow open carry without a concealed permit? If so, they need to change their rules.
    Read the statutes quoted above.
    "(2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony."

    Okay, the question is in the sentence strucure. Does that "concealed" refer only to "dangerous weapon" or to "
    dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices"?

    76-10-501. Definitions.
    As used in this part:
    (1) (a) "Antique firearm" means any firearm:
    (i) (A) with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system; and
    (B) that was manufactured in or before 1898; or
    (ii) that is a replica of any firearm described in this Subsection (1)(a), if the replica:
    (A) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or
    (B) uses rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition which is:
    (I) no longer manufactured in the United States; and
    (II) is not readily available in ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
    (iii) (A) that is a muzzle loading rifle, shotgun, or pistol; and
    (B) is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and cannot use fixed ammunition.
    (b) "Antique firearm" does not include:
    (i) any weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver;
    (ii) any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon; or
    (iii) any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the:
    (A) barrel;
    (B) bolt;
    (C) breechblock; or
    (D) any combination of Subsection (1)(b)(iii)(A), (B), or (C).
    (2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    (b) A dangerous weapon shall not be considered a concealed dangerous weapon if it is a firearm which is unloaded and is securely encased.
    (3) "Criminal history background check" means a criminal background check conducted by a licensed firearms dealer on every purchaser of a handgun through the division or the local law enforcement agency where the firearms dealer conducts business.
    (4) "Curio or relic firearm" means any firearm that:
    (a) is of special interest to a collector because of a quality that is not associated with firearms intended for:
    (i) sporting use;
    (ii) use as an offensive weapon; or
    (iii) use as a defensive weapon;
    (b) (i) was manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date; and
    (ii) is not a replica of a firearm described in Subsection (4)(b)(i);
    (c) is certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be a curio or relic of museum interest;
    (d) derives a substantial part of its monetary value:
    (i) from the fact that the firearm is:
    (A) novel;
    (B) rare; or



    [line]
    (C) bizarre; or
    (ii) because of the firearm's association with an historical:
    (A) figure;
    (B) period; or
    (C) event; and
    (e) has been designated as a curio or relic firearm by the director of the United States Treasury Department Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms under 27 C.F.R. Sec. 178.11.
    (5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
    (i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
    (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
    (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
    (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.
    (b) "Dangerous weapon" does not include any explosive, chemical, or incendiary device as defined by Section 76-10-306.
    (6) "Dealer" means every person who is licensed under crimes and criminal procedure, 18 U.S.C. 923 and engaged in the business of selling, leasing, or otherwise transferring a handgun, whether the person is a retail or wholesale dealer, pawnbroker, or otherwise.
    (7) "Division" means the Criminal Investigations and Technical Services Division of the Department of Public Safety, created in Section 53-10-103.
    (8) "Enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
    (9) (a) "Firearm" means a pistol, revolver, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, rifle or sawed-off rifle, or any device that could be used as a dangerous weapon from which is expelled a projectile by action of an explosive.
    (b) As used in Sections 76-10-526 and 76-10-527, "firearm" does not include an antique firearm.
    (10) "Firearms transaction record form" means a form created by the division to be completed by a person purchasing, selling, or transferring a handgun from a dealer in the state.
    (11) "Fully automatic weapon" means any firearm which fires, is designed to fire, or can be readily restored to fire, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger.
    (12) (a) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged, the length of which, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed 12 inches.
    (b) As used in Sections 76-10-520, 76-10-521, and 76-10-522, "handgun" and "pistol or revolver" do not include an antique firearm.
    (13) "House of worship" means a church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other building set apart primarily for the purpose of worship in which religious services are held and the main body of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with its primary purpose.
    (14) "Prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.
    (15) "Readily accessible for immediate use" means that a firearm or other dangerous weapon is carried on the person or within such close proximity and in such a manner that it can be
    retrieved and used as readily as if carried on the person.
    (16) "Residence" means an improvement to real property used or occupied as a primary or secondary residence.
    (17) "Sawed-off shotgun" or "sawed-off rifle" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of fewer than 18 inches in length, or in the case of a rifle, having a barrel or barrels of fewer than 16 inches in length, or any dangerous weapon made from a rifle or shotgun by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of fewer than 26 inches.
    (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.
    (19) "State entity" means each department, commission, board, council, agency, institution, officer, corporation, fund, division, office, committee, authority, laboratory, library, unit, bureau, panel, or other administrative unit of the state.
    (20) "Violent felony" means the same as defined in Section 76-3-203.5.

    Amended by Chapter 111, 2001 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 76_10_050100.ZIP 5,203 Bytes


    [line]
    Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page

    Last revised: Thursday, May 01, 2008

  15. #15
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    So, wait, I think I'm gonna have to read the statutes again, but that law, from what I read, does not make any provisions against OC without a permit, would that mean that you could lawfully OC without a permit?

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    Well, thats what I thought at first, that it only prohibits concealment. However, concealed dangerous weapon, and firearm are separated by a comma. This sentence could be read either way. Most likely it will be read to prohibit firearms openly or concealed.

    (2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    But it is separated by a comma and not a "or". Either the statute is redundant or a concealed firearm is not normally concidered a dagerous dealdy weapon so was listed separately.


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    Does a comma used as a separator or pause also remove any conditions attatched to the first item in the list?

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    (2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony.


    This also makes it a third class felony to bring a bottle hooch of any type in the "inflammable catagory". I don't know the proof point at which that would be a problem but the 150-200 area certainly would. Not to drag this too far off topic but it shows how a statute can snag anybody. A third degree felony is pretty stiff for something perfectly legal before stepping on the bus.

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    lockman wrote:
    Does a comma used as a separator or pause also remove any conditions attatched to the first item in the list?
    I think gramatically, the word "concealed" could be said to modify all of the list of items - "dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices" - or just the "dangerous weapon."

    Are their any similarly worded statutes in Utah to use for parallel construction?

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    lockman wrote:
    Does a comma used as a separator or pause also remove any conditions attatched to the first item in the list?
    Rule 12d(1), Harbrace College Handbook page 134. "Nonrestrictive clauses or phrases and nonrestrictive appositives are set off by commas. Restrictive elements are not set off."

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    Does a comma used as a separator or pause also remove any conditions attatched to the first item in the list?
    Rule 12d(1), Harbrace College Handbook page 134. "Nonrestrictive clauses or phrases and nonrestrictive appositives are set off by commas.* Restrictive elements are not set off."
    Thank you Doug.

    This means that, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Is not restrictive in referring to the milita and the Utah code is un-constitutional as it is restrictive as to indivigual rights to have and bear arms.

    Tarzan

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    Does a comma used as a separator or pause also remove any conditions attatched to the first item in the list?
    Rule 12d(1), Harbrace College Handbook page 134. "Nonrestrictive clauses or phrases and nonrestrictive appositives are set off by commas. Restrictive elements are not set off."
    Doesn't help, unfortunately, since this is a comma-separated list rather than a clause or an appositive.

    Unfortunately, I think that the court would assume that "concealed" applies only to the first element of the list, not all of them. For two reasons.

    First, 76-10-501 explicitly defines "concealed dangerous weapon", so it's reasonable for the court to assume that 76-10-1507(2)(a) is referring back to this definition, and aggregating it with a list of other items.

    Second, and more important, if the court chose to presume that the "concealed" qualifier applied to each element of the list, then "firearms" is redundant, because per the definitions of section 501 a firearm is a dangerous weapon unless it is both unloaded and securely encased, so an OC'd firearm is a dangerous weapon even if unloaded. If, on the other hand, the court assumed that the "concealed" modifier applied only to "dangerous weapons", then the inclusion of "firearms" in the list is not redundant, since even though concealed firearms are contained in "concealed dangerous weapons", unconcealed firearms are not.

    I'm not a lawyer, but I've read some opinions that turned on choosing the interpretation of the law that assumed lawmakers know what they're doing and don't write redundancies in the law. I don't know how valid that assumption is, but it gives courts a useful guideline to disambiguate statutes like 1507(2)(a).

    Hmm. A counterargument just occurred to me. Interpreting "concealed" as not applying to "firearms" would also imply that even unloaded, securely-encased firearms are banned on buses, which would make it impossible to, for example, take a bus to the range for target practice. Courts also don't like to construe the law too broadly, and saying that there is absolutely no legal way to transport a firearm on a bus is pretty broad.

    Bottom line to me: I don't think it's clear whether or not you can OC on a bus without a CFP, and I wouldn't want to be the test case for a third degree felony which can be argued either way. I'd be interested in Mitch Vilos' opinion.

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    Treat passenger buses (Greyhound, etc) like airplanes.

    UTA comment from Mitch's book is as follows:

    "On INTRASTATE "buses" (UTA buses and TRAX - the definition in U.C.A. 76-10-1503 seems to be broad enough to cover TRAX vehicles as well as buses) state law applies. Concealed weapon permit holders CAN take concealed weapons into the passenger compartments of such vehicles. Non-permit holders can't. If a non-permit holder violates this state law it is a felony" - Page 106, Utah Gun Law 3rd Edition, Mitch Vilos

    I too would appreciate an interpretation from Mitch or AG Shurtleff regarding Open Carry on public transport. You would think that it would follow state law, but there are always weird exceptions to the rule.

    Go out and buy Mitch's book - it's only about $20 and can be purchased from any retailer on this list.

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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    Treat passenger buses (Greyhound, etc) like airplanes.

    UTA comment from Mitch's book is as follows:

    "On INTRASTATE "buses" (UTA buses and TRAX - the definition in U.C.A. 76-10-1503 seems to be broad enough to cover TRAX vehicles as well as buses) state law applies. Concealed weapon permit holders CAN take concealed weapons into the passenger compartments of such vehicles. Non-permit holders can't. If a non-permit holder violates this state law it is a felony" - Page 106, Utah Gun Law 3rd Edition, Mitch Vilos

    I too would appreciate an interpretation from Mitch or AG Shurtleff regarding Open Carry on public transport. You would think that it would follow state law, but there are always weird exceptions to the rule.

    Go out and buy Mitch's book - it's only about $20 and can be purchased from any retailer on this list.
    They are ALL considered MOTORIZED VEHICLES from what I understand when I talked to Clark at the Sweet Tomatoes Meet.

    Therefore NO carry for NON-Permit holders in ANY way.

    TJ

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