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Thread: OC and LEO

  1. #1
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    I'm interested on what people say to officers if they have a gun on their passanger seat and they are pulled over. For CCP you'll normal say, "Officer, I'm informing you that I have a Concealed Carry Permit and I am current carrying a firearm." Something like that. But for OC what would you say?

    I've been thinking about this if I got pulled over: "Officer, I'm informing you I'm exercising my Constitutional right to carry a firearm and I am currently carrying a firearm." Something like that and probably the same thing in a store.

    What say you?
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    Well, if the state law says it must be in plain view and it is, there should be nothing to say at all. If asked, just inform that it's legally open carried in a vehicle as per law umptey-squat....

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    What about in a store?
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    According to Utah rules, you only need to notify the officer if it is concealed. I am sure that any LEO will tell you otherwise.

    R722-300-12. Requirement to Notify Peace Officer When Stopped.
    When a concealed firearm permit holder or certificate of qualification holder is stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion in accordance with Section 77-7-15 and the holder has a concealed firearm in his/her possession, the holder shall immediately advise the peace officer that he/she is a lawful holder and has a concealed firearm in his/her possession.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    So it shouldn't matter. Okay. Thanks.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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  6. #6
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    Outsider wrote:
    I'm interested on what people say to officers if they have a gun on their passanger seat and they are pulled over. For CCP you'll normal say, "Officer, I'm informing you that I have a Concealed Carry Permit and I am current carrying a firearm." Something like that. But for OC what would you say?

    I've been thinking about this if I got pulled over: "Officer, I'm informing you I'm exercising my Constitutional right to carry a firearm and I am currently carrying a firearm." Something like that and probably the same thing in a store.

    What say you?
    Here in Utah, I am legally required to inform an officer making an official stop when I am CCing. I do that by NOT saying a word. Last thing I want is for a cop to fixate on the word "gun." I simply hand him my permit, keep my hands in plain sight, and shut up until he tells me what he wants.

    For open carry (or even non concealed out of sight carry such as fully cased) I had a very simply rule: If the gun was likely to come to his attention at some point during a stop, I wanted to tell him about it first. I prefer softer langauge than "informing" anyone of anything and would say something like, "Just so there are no unpleasant surprises, you should be aware that I am in legal possession of a firearm."

    If the gun was NOT likely to come to his attention (cased out of sight and a routine traffic stop) I see no reason to bring it up.

    While I cannot cite the case, I have been told repeatedly that the SCOTUS has ruled that no law can require you to surrender your 5th amendment rights when you are actually violating a law. So, for example, if you have foolishly ended up with a gun ILLEGALLY concealed, you may want to exercise your 5th amd rights in that regard and quicly accept whatever minor ticket is offered and move along before you give any reason to justify a search.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    While I cannot cite the case, I have been told repeatedly that the SCOTUS has ruled that no law can require you to surrender your 5th amendment rights when you are actually violating a law. So, for example, if you have foolishly ended up with a gun ILLEGALLY concealed, you may want to exercise your 5th amd rights in that regard and quicly accept whatever minor ticket is offered and move along before you give any reason to justify a search.
    That would be most wise IMHO.

    While CC I usually say something like: Officer, I am required to inform you that I have my CCW permit and currently have a concealed firearm on my right hip (or wherever it is)

    While OC I like Utbagpiper's answer: "Just so there are no unpleasant surprises, you should be aware that I am in legal possession of a firearm."

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    xmirage2kx wrote:

    While CC I usually say something like: Officer, I am required to inform you that I have my CCW permit and currently have a concealed firearm on my right hip (or wherever it is)

    While OC I like Utbagpiper's answer: "Just so there are no unpleasant surprises, you should be aware that I am in legal possession of a firearm."
    I should add, that since getting a permit, my response for OC is the same as CC: hand the permit and keep hands visible. Not only does it avoid the possibility of someone fixating on the word "gun," but it also gives some assurance right up front that I am not a cop killing maniac. And since I carry loaded OC, sooner or later a cop making an official stop is likely to ask for it anyway.

    In fact, these days, even if I were to be unarmed I would provide my permit either with or as ID in an official stop. I'd much rather explain right up front why I gave a permit when I wasn't carrying, than have a license or other ID check come back flagged as a permit holder and then try to explain to a nervous or angry cop why I did not disclose sooner.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Last time I was pulled over it was night. As I pulled over I turned on my dome light and hit the AutoDown button on my window and kept my hands on the steering wheel after shutting off the car. The officer walked up to the window and looked at me and said "You have a gun don't you" and gave a light laugh.

    Once I heard the laugh I knew I was good :celebrate

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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    Last time I was pulled over it was night. As I pulled over I turned on my dome light and hit the AutoDown button on my window and kept my hands on the steering wheel after shutting off the car. The officer walked up to the window and looked at me and said "You have a gun don't you" and gave a light laugh.

    Once I heard the laugh I knew I was good :celebrate
    Oh, that sounds good.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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  11. #11
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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    Last time I was pulled over it was night. As I pulled over I turned on my dome light and hit the AutoDown button on my window and kept my hands on the steering wheel after shutting off the car. The officer walked up to the window and looked at me and said "You have a gun don't you" and gave a light laugh.

    Once I heard the laugh I knew I was good :celebrate
    EXACTLY the response we would hope for, both individually and collectively from officers. It signals they know law abiding gun owners are NOT a problem, and are likely to be the safest stops they make.

    I'm a little out of practice on stops since I traded my old muscle car for a less attention commuter-mobile. But I was pretty good about having my license, permit, reg, and insurance in my left hand as the officer walked up to the car.

    Especially at night a little thought of how to put hte officer at ease can pay big dividends. Get as far off the road as possible so he isn't standing in traffic. If you must drive a ways to find a safe stopping location, hit the hazards and slow a bit. Avoid digging around in the car; keep your paperwork where it is easy to get to like in a viser clip. Shut off engine; leave lights and hazards on. Turn on dome light, drop the window, have paperwork in hand, and hands on wheel.

    Of course, the above assumes you have no reason to think the stop is anything other than a legit police stop. If there is any doubt or concern--including unmarked cars, women traveling alone at night or in remote locations, out of uniform officers, etc--adjustments to assure you own safety may be warranted.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  12. #12
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    xmirage2kx wrote:
    Last time I was pulled over it was night. As I pulled over I turned on my dome light and hit the AutoDown button on my window and kept my hands on the steering wheel after shutting off the car. The officer walked up to the window and looked at me and said "You have a gun don't you" and gave a light laugh.

    Once I heard the laugh I knew I was good :celebrate
    EXACTLY the response we would hope for, both individually and collectively from officers. It signals they know law abiding gun owners are NOT a problem, and are likely to be the safest stops they make.

    I'm a little out of practice on stops since I traded my old muscle car for a less attention commuter-mobile. But I was pretty good about having my license, permit, reg, and insurance in my left hand as the officer walked up to the car.

    Especially at night a little thought of how to put hte officer at ease can pay big dividends. Get as far off the road as possible so he isn't standing in traffic. If you must drive a ways to find a safe stopping location, hit the hazards and slow a bit. Avoid digging around in the car; keep your paperwork where it is easy to get to like in a viser clip. Shut off engine; leave lights and hazards on. Turn on dome light, drop the window, have paperwork in hand, and hands on wheel.

    Of course, the above assumes you have no reason to think the stop is anything other than a legit police stop. If there is any doubt or concern--including unmarked cars, women traveling alone at night or in remote locations, out of uniform officers, etc--adjustments to assure you own safety may be warranted.
    I fully agree with that last sentence. At night I'd probably singal for the officer to follow me to a gas station or somewhere someone else can tell what is going on. If they get mad, oh well, you're looking out for your safety. Really for women too.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    Outsider, are you carrying openly on the seat? I know that is legal, but have you thought about what you are going to do if you get pulled over by a school zone?

    Even driving out of it, the officer might tag you for breaking the law because he knew he was stopping you by the zone originally.

    Just some food for thought (this has been on my mind)

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Outsider, are you carrying openly on the seat? I know that is legal, but have you thought about what you are going to do if you get pulled over by a school zone?
    I should probably let Outsider speak for himself, but I know he's aware of these issues because we've had several discussions about them on this forum and UCC.

    Originally he was just being careful to avoid school zones, even though it often meant long detours. Now I think he's got (or is getting?) a car safe so he can lock the gun up when passing through a school zone.

    I think the car safe might be a good idea even outside of a school zone. Just leave the key in the lock so you can retrieve the gun very quickly if you need it. Doing that would make the gun "securely encased", so you wouldn't have to worry about any arguments over whether or not the weapon is "concealed" by your car door, and it would avoid the need to put the gun in the safe when approaching a school zone.

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    swillden wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Outsider, are you carrying openly on the seat? I know that is legal, but have you thought about what you are going to do if you get pulled over by a school zone?
    I should probably let Outsider speak for himself, but I know he's aware of these issues because we've had several discussions about them on this forum and UCC.

    Originally he was just being careful to avoid school zones, even though it often meant long detours. Now I think he's got (or is getting?) a car safe so he can lock the gun up when passing through a school zone.

    I think the car safe might be a good idea even outside of a school zone. Just leave the key in the lock so you can retrieve the gun very quickly if you need it. Doing that would make the gun "securely encased", so you wouldn't have to worry about any arguments over whether or not the weapon is "concealed" by your car door, and it would avoid the need to put the gun in the safe when approaching a school zone.
    Right now I'm just using the case that my gun originally came in and putting it in that when I go through school zones, but I am ordering next week those Center of Mass cases for each car (my truck and wife's car). So yeah, that is what I'm doing. Can't wait for my CCP to come in so I don't have to worry about it. And when I'm not in a school zone area (which is very hard in my neighborhood because I got UVU to the south and three K-12 schools to the east with I-15 to the west) I have my gun on the seat next to me or in the cup holder in between the wife and I when we're both in the car.
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  16. #16
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    I bought my CoM case at Cabelas and the other one at Gallensons (which no longer carries them). I would check out Cabelas if you can - might be cheaper/faster than ordering online.

    Here's the linky.

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    When in a school zone, is there a stipulation that the magazine has to be out of the firearm or not near the firearm? Or, is it ok to leave a full magazine in the firearm without a chambered round?

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Outsider, are you carrying openly on the seat? I know that is legal, but have you thought about what you are going to do if you get pulled over by a school zone?

    Even driving out of it, the officer might tag you for breaking the law because he knew he was stopping you by the zone originally.

    Just some food for thought (this has been on my mind)
    As far as Utah Law goes I was under the impression that in a vehicle school zones don't matter.

    Federal law is a different matter.

    So unless the local cop decided to arrest you on Federal Charges, you would be fine right?

    What am I missing?


    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.
    Amended by Chapter 203, 2003 General Session


  19. #19
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    A cop is looking for any reason to arrest you, make no mistake about it. And one of the biggest laws we can voilate easily is walking or driving too close to a school zone without a CWP and a gun on our hip.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    So unless the local cop decided to arrest you on Federal Charges, you would be fine right?
    Yes, but I don't think it's a good idea to assume that a local cop wouldn't jack you up for a federal crime.

  21. #21
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    swillden wrote:
    Yes, but I don't think it's a good idea to assume that a local cop wouldn't jack you up for a federal crime.
    I do note the federal law in question (gun free school zone) has already been tossed by SCOTUS. And that was before the recent addition of Roberts who shows some evidence of actually understanding some basic constitutional principles like federalism and limited powers (I expect them to revoke his law degree any day now). Congress repassed the same law with some BS language about interstate commerce.

    And while a federal court case is nothing to sneeze at, odds are you would prevail. Odds are nearly as good the feds would never bring the case. The REAL power of the federal law at this point is that it encourages States to mirror the law in their State code where it CAN be enforced. I doubt the feds are going to risk that over an otherwise law abiding citizen not even in violation of the applicable State code.

    That all said, those who are eligible really do benefit from having a state issued weapons carry permit. There are a LOT of school zones in Utah, and under State law includes not only K-12 (plus 1000') around them, but also licensed day care facilities (often in private homes with no markings at all on the outside), and all institutions of higher ed including vocational schools like about half of all beauty salons, some mechanics. and a lot of other places that don't look like "schools."

    I certainly sympathize with concerns about fingerprints or asking permission. I avoided a permit for many years for the same reasons. But I tended to keep my firearm legally unloaded and cased in my car rather than trying to OC very much before I had a permit. Pretty tough to keep track of school zones.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  22. #22
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    And while a federal court case is nothing to sneeze at, odds are you would prevail. Odds are nearly as good the feds would never bring the case. The REAL power of the federal law at this point is that it encourages States to mirror the law in their State code where it CAN be enforced. I doubt the feds are going to risk that over an otherwise law abiding citizen not even in violation of the applicable State code.
    Very interesting. Thanks.

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