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Dickson City Police Chief Stadnitski works to encourage businesses to ban gun carry!

apjonas

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Mike wrote:
OK, so, is this act called "POPA"?:cool:

--


§926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

921 of this title); and
921 of this title).
No, LEOSA.
 

Pa. Patriot

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apjonas wrote:

It depends upon what you mean by "private."


No. Your reading the statute incorrectly. There need be no law stating that you can prohibit behavior on your property. (laws prohibit, not allow). So since PA allows private pprperty to prohibit carry (by the lack of a law saying they can't) the LEOSA can not override that.
Regardless, it's a point not really relevant to the discussion.
 

Pa. Patriot

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apjonas wrote:

Do you really think the Chief is going to say "Tough luck, you should have prohibited firearms in your joint!" I think he is saying, rightly so, that his department is not going to respond to legal carry (by itself). I consider that a win. Can't you guys take Yes for an answer?

No, it is not a win. They are imposing a tiered system of responding to man with a gun call based on the "list" of businesses that have no gun policies.
This is bad because this implies they can do something to an OC'er if the biz is on the no guns list. They can't by law. They should be handling the call the same regardless of the company policy.
If the property owner wants the person to leave they need to tell them. The police can not act on behalf of the property owner or agent without being asked to.

The list is also possibly being used to intimidate businesses to put up no guns policies or face reduced police response.
 

apjonas

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Pa. Patriot wrote:
apjonas wrote:

It depends upon what you mean by "private."


No. Your reading the statute incorrectly. There need be no law stating that you can prohibit behavior on your property. (laws prohibit, not allow). So since PA allows private pprperty to prohibit carry (by the lack of a law saying they can't) the LEOSA can not override that.
Regardless, it's a point not really relevant to the discussion.

This law PROHIBITS the PROHIBITION (= allows) of concealed carry by qualified LEO's unless state law allows for such PROHIBITION under b(1) or b(2). Again (or for the first time if you missed this) this law does not override the (constitutional)right of an owner of private property, not generally open to the public to prohibit carry. It does PROHIBIT a business from PROHIBITING (= allows) concealed carry if a b(2) law is not enacted.

There are no laws that "allow" blacks to eat at Denny's. There are laws that PROHIBIT restaurants from PROHIBITING (=allow) people from entering on the basis of race, religion......
 

apjonas

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Pa. Patriot wrote:
apjonas wrote:

Do you really think the Chief is going to say "Tough luck, you should have prohibited firearms in your joint!" I think he is saying, rightly so, that his department is not going to respond to legal carry (by itself). I consider that a win. Can't you guys take Yes for an answer?
No, it is not a win.
Hmmm. Not responding because there is no illegal activity alleged. Sounds like good management of resources.
They are imposing a tiered system of responding to man with a gun call based on the "list" of businesses that have no gun policies.
If a "no gun" policy is relevant then it makes sense.
This is bad because this implies they can do something to an OC'er if the biz is on the no guns list. They can't by law.
They can't? Well - perhaps I do not understand PA law. If a business has a no gun policy and they post or notify as required by statute, then I think entering with a gun could result in a charge. What law are you referring to?
They should be handling the call the same regardless of the company policy.
If the property owner wants the person to leave they need to tell them. The police can not act on behalf of the property owner or agent without being asked to.
If there is a no gun policy and the OC'er ignores it, I would not want to confront such a person. I probably wouldn't confront an unknown, armed individual regardless of the policy. If I want the person to leave (and I have that authority), I might call the police for assistance. How the PD responds should be based upon the situation, if the caller is just another customer or a passer-by, there is no reason to respond. Isn't that the Old Country Buffet group's position?
The list is also possibly being used to intimidate businesses to put up no guns policies or face reduced police response.
Nonsense. A deliberate withholding of police services under those circumstances would be actionable. The chief is not that stupid. If the situation is just uncomplicated open carry - there is no reason to respond. If the situation involves robbery, assault, even simple trespass - restricting response on the basis of the enterprise's business policies would get people fired, sued and possibly jailed. It really appears that some folks here want to have a bitch - no matter what. If this kind of position is maintained - the chief is going to start to look sympathetic - and ain't that a creepy thought. If a business doesn't want OC - there is a way to accomplish that objective. If a business doesn't care - it doesn't care and wouldn't be calling the PD in the first place.
 

vermonter

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Way to go guys. Pennsylvanians are now set up for business gun ban signs statewide. You see the response the idiot Chief got from business owners. Frankly I don't see this overwhelming need to OC in malls, Walmart etc. What point are you trying to prove? Personally you should spend your time lobbying for national concealed carry VIA forcing communist states line NJ, MA and CA to accept CCW's from other states. MANY people will never accept your rights and you will NEVER change their minds about OC or CCW. Pissing them off by showing your iron in their faceonly results in MORE restrictions like signs banning carry when the sheeple write to their reps. We have come a LONG way with CCW in the past few years? I don't understand the big push for OC in CERTAIN states with sheep for citizens. Do it in AZ, WY, MT, NM, ID, KY etc. We have very few CCW restrictions in PA, why set us up where legislators feel the need to add more. I ignore business signs, but I CCW so they never know I have it on me anyway. PA cops and citizens are NOT OC carry friendly! Same goes for OC legal Vermont. If you want to sling a gun move to Arizona! Don't flame me for being anti...... But look at NY. Go ahaead and tryOC in NY and see where you wind up!!!!! PA is the same with a loophole. Keep pushing and they will close it and ban CCW in posted business. Or pass a law banning OC, which may include accidential flashing or printing like Texas. Let your CCW print in texas and see what DPS does to your ass!!!
 

Jared

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vermonter wrote:
Way to go guys. Pennsylvanians are now set up for business gun ban signs statewide. You see the response the idiot Chief got from business owners. Frankly I don't see this overwhelming need to OC in malls, Walmart etc. What point are you trying to prove? Personally you should spend your time lobbying for national concealed carry VIA forcing communist states line NJ, MA and CA to accept CCW's from other states. MANY people will never accept your rights and you will NEVER change their minds about OC or CCW. Pissing them off by showing your iron in their faceonly results in MORE restrictions like signs banning carry when the sheeple write to their reps. We have come a LONG way with CCW in the past few years? I don't understand the big push for OC in CERTAIN states with sheep for citizens. Do it in AZ, WY, MT, NM, ID, KY etc. We have very few CCW restrictions in PA, why set us up where legislators feel the need to add more. I ignore business signs, but I CCW so they never know I have it on me anyway. PA cops and citizens are NOT OC carry friendly! Same goes for OC legal Vermont. If you want to sling a gun move to Arizona! Don't flame me for being anti...... But look at NY. Go ahaead and tryOC in NY and see where you wind up!!!!! PA is the same with a loophole. Keep pushing and they will close it and ban CCW in posted business. Or pass a law banning OC, which may include accidential flashing or printing like Texas. Let your CCW print in texas and see what DPS does to your ass!!!


I've open carried in Vermont many times without issue.

PA does not have a loophole in open carry, the law was worded the way it was and it has 2 state supreme courtcases (one being Hawkins)on the matter.

New York, you can't open carry because it's been illegal since 1911 due to Section 400.00. It's very different from other states.

How about a little less emotion and quote some laws or case law. Remember, OC will push many states to loosen or actually get CCW laws (ie. Ohio).

The supreme court said their is no right to CCW in Robertson v Baldwin.

Your own state of vermont, said open carry is a right and CCW is ok because no state law banned it in State V Rosenthal 1903.
 

JNod

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Pennsylvanians are now set up for business gun ban signs statewide.
Doesn't matter, they have no legal bearing in PA. You must be verbally asked to leave.

Do it in AZ, WY, MT, NM, ID, KY etc.
Let's see: too hot, too far away, too far away, too hot, don't like potatos, don't like Wafflehouse...

PA cops and citizens are NOT OC carry friendly!
Not true, I have met plenty of OC friendly people here in PA.

The rest of your argument holds no weight either. There is no loophole and PA is not NY, TX, etc.
 

Aran

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vermonter wrote:
Way to go guys. Pennsylvanians are now set up for business gun ban signs statewide. You see the response the idiot Chief got from business owners. Frankly I don't see this overwhelming need to OC in malls, Walmart etc. What point are you trying to prove? Personally you should spend your time lobbying for national concealed carry VIA forcing communist states line NJ, MA and CA to accept CCW's from other states. MANY people will never accept your rights and you will NEVER change their minds about OC or CCW. Pissing them off by showing your iron in their faceonly results in MORE restrictions like signs banning carry when the sheeple write to their reps. We have come a LONG way with CCW in the past few years? I don't understand the big push for OC in CERTAIN states with sheep for citizens. Do it in AZ, WY, MT, NM, ID, KY etc. We have very few CCW restrictions in PA, why set us up where legislators feel the need to add more. I ignore business signs, but I CCW so they never know I have it on me anyway. PA cops and citizens are NOT OC carry friendly! Same goes for OC legal Vermont. If you want to sling a gun move to Arizona! Don't flame me for being anti...... But look at NY. Go ahaead and tryOC in NY and see where you wind up!!!!! PA is the same with a loophole. Keep pushing and they will close it and ban CCW in posted business. Or pass a law banning OC, which may include accidential flashing or printing like Texas. Let your CCW print in texas and see what DPS does to your ass!!!

Oh good, another closeted anti-gun poster.

"Don't use those rights you have, or you'll lose them!" :banghead:
 

Statkowski

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His name is Vermonter but his location is blank, as is his argument. Sounds like a dislocated New Yorker. Ooohh, don't upset the authorities elsewise they might try to suppress you even more.

Sorry, Vermonter, but we have constitutionally-guaranteed rights, not privileges. Don't know about where you come from, or where you are, but if a law enforcement officer abuses our rights, we, as Pennsylvanians, have the ability to press criminal charges against that officer via Section 5301 of the Crimes Code. Done often enough by enough Pennsylvanians, the message will eventually get through.

Whether I carry openly or concealed is my business, and I'll not have you, or anyone else, tell me I should avoid upsetting those with meek dispositions- that's their problem, not mine. This is not the People's Republic of New York, or New Jersey; this is the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the home of the Whiskey Rebellion, the home of the largest anti draft insurrection outside of New York City during the War Between the States. If I carry concealed, I do so knowing that there are roughly 575,000 fellow Pennsylvanians with the ability to do likewise.

Don't tread on me.
 

bobcat

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Could be it's actually a good thing that Chief Stadnitski is reacting to the law the way he is. He is clearly showing his hand and it is weak and possibly illegal. Not like he and his poorly educated staff have not done anything wrong to begin with.:shock:

I suggest, let him play out his hand, with documentation of his using dept time and tax dollars in an effort to circumvent state laws or misconstrue how he will enforce. He clearly implies selective enforcement to the uneducated by taking advantage of a mindset that a GUN is BAD regardless of who is carrying it. He is sealing his own fate.

Seems the Chief is attempting to blur the difference between law abiding gun owners and criminals. This is a familiar tune, is it not?

Who does the Chief report to? Not being familiar with PA law, I would guess the Mayor and possibly the city council as an approval body. Some pressure there might get real interesting. According to posts here, the council meetings have gotten quite interesting...

Secondly, some businesses declaring publicly to not allow carry could be seen as an opportunity to educate on the state law, VDZ's and the differnence between a law abiding citizen with a firearm and a criminal with one. While it is their right to deny, they should at least do so in an informed manner rather than responding to a knee jerk implication of a poorly informed LEO? Law abiding carriers can then respond accordingly with dollar usage.

Just my .02

As for 'vermonter', I would politely ask how he suggests to change the mind of PA law enforcements apparent inacceptance of open carry? Just ignoring it or worse, taking a tactically reversing defensive stance won't fix it. And BTW, this is NOT primarily about concealed carry.:)
 

Statkowski

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Who does the Chief report to? Not being familiar with PA law, I would guess the Mayor and possibly the city council as an approval body. Some pressure there might get real interesting. According to posts here, the council meetings have gotten quite interesting...
The Chief reports to the Mayor. Borough Council only approves his/her appointment to the position and also approves the budget.

The Mayor may suspend the Chief, or any Officers, but Borough Council action is required to terminate or further suspend such individuals.
 

Mike

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Can anyone elese think of a police department response occuring like this recently? I cannot.

I think it is unprecedented that a local police chief would unertake to establish gun bans in privately owned businesses upon threat of diminuation of 911 call services.
 

RussP

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Hope this works...

If anyone wants to use it, feel free to.

:cool:
 

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Big Gay Al

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Mike wrote:
Can anyone elese think of a police department response occuring like this recently? I cannot.

I think it is unprecedented that a local police chief would unertake to establish gun bans in privately owned businesses upon threat of diminuation of 911 call services.

The thing is, it's possible that the Mayor and city council may be of the same mind as the chief. The only way they're gonna countermand him, or sanction him in any way is if a significant number of town residents speak up and seriously protest this action.
 

Statkowski

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The only way they're gonna countermand him, or sanction him in any way is if a significant number of town residents speak up and seriously protest this action.
It ain't over until the fat lady sings. The offended PAFOA "Dickson Dozen" haven't yet filed their lawsuit. I'm sure a lot of sub rosa activity has and is being done on this matter, and we will hear about it. When the Dickson City police officers, police chief, mayor and borough government get hit, I'm most certain they're going to get hit hard.
 

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Ok, Mr. Jnod...... So lets say I go to PA with my LTCF and there is now a sign at Joes Diner banning carry b/c of Chief Asswipes letters to business owners. So now I have to leave my lawful LICENSED firearm in the car b/c the business has the right to ban me by way of asking me to leave. Now lets say 90% of the business post such signs under threat of trespass. So my choice is 1) leave my firearm in the car (which was never the case before) , 2) Go inside armed and tell the shop owner to go screw himself and get arrested for failing to leave thus loosing my LCTF, or 3) Not go shopping, to the restaurant, or most businesses since all have posted said sign. Now that someone made an issue they had BETTER be prepared to go all the way to the supreme court so MY RIGHT will not be infringed by a sign that was never present in PA before. Sound like PA is heading for TEXAS where every store has a sign, and gues who's helping to spread the word that signs ar a lawful way of keeping law abiding citizens out. Don't EVEN think of telling me how "gun friendly" shop owners are. Just look at Texas and other states where signs are EVERYWHERE..... No I am not a transplant.....
 

Big Gay Al

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vermonter wrote:
Ok, Mr. Jnod...... So lets say I go to PA with my LTCF and there is now a sign at Joes Diner banning carry b/c of Chief Asswipes letters to business owners. So now I have to leave my lawful LICENSED firearm in the car b/c the business has the right to ban me by way of asking me to leave. Now lets say 90% of the business post such signs under threat of trespass. So my choice is 1) leave my firearm in the car (which was never the case before) , 2) Go inside armed and tell the shop owner to go screw himself and get arrested for failing to leave thus loosing my LCTF, or 3) Not go shopping, to the restaurant, or most businesses since all have posted said sign. Now that someone made an issue they had BETTER be prepared to go all the way to the supreme court so MY RIGHT will not be infringed by a sign that was never present in PA before. Sound like PA is heading for TEXAS where every store has a sign, and gues who's helping to spread the word that signs ar a lawful way of keeping law abiding citizens out. Don't EVEN think of telling me how "gun friendly" shop owners are. Just look at Texas and other states where signs are EVERYWHERE..... No I am not a transplant.....
You forgot option 4, carry concealed and don't say a word to anyone. You're not in trouble then, unless they catch you, and even then, they have to ask you to leave, and you have to refuse before you are in real trouble.
 

Prophet

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Option 5: Go to the 10% of the places that do not have the signs. It will be an economical boon for them and will hit the anti shop owners in the pocket hard. Especially when criminals, knowing they have a free ride will continually rob them.

Vermonter, i apologize that you think you can wake up every morning and just bask in the god given rights that the bill of rights grant without having to work for it. True, they are inalienable rights bestowed upon us by our creator, but while they may be given to us by god they need to be defended by people like the Dickson Dozen. If you want to support something thats popular and easy go ahead and support puppies...everyone loves puppies. If you actually give a damn about inherent rights that maniacs like the Chief of Dicksons police try to erode through both overt and subtle means then you should stop bitching about how your shopping might get a little more difficult and actually praise the people who are drawing a line in the sand and bringing the issue into light.

One of the reasons i OC is so the non gun owners realize that law abiding people ACTUALLY CARRY FIREARMS. If the ostrich crowd (those with their head in the sands) only associate guns with criminals then why wouldn't they support gun control? People need their eyes opened that it is perfectly acceptable and common that law abiding citizens carry for their own protection. But the world won't see that if everyone conceals and therefore the word won't get out. I have actually had conversations with people about my sidearm who were from New York, Jersey and Maryland who thought PA gun laws where just like theirs at home (ie oppressive) and seeing how its different they are motivated to exercise their 2A rights here in the commonwealth.

I'm sorry if your shopping gets more difficult...if your rights are so cheaply bought then i pity you.
 

PavePusher

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Actually, option 6 sounds good to me. Enter the posted establishment with your O.C. item. This will make the owner/operator have to either: A. Ignore the O.C., or B. Ask you to leave. If they chose option B, hand them the "no guns, no money" card, quickly explain why you will no longer give them your buisness, and leave peacefully. Kind of like sitting-ins at racially segregated establishments, except for the "leaving" part.I don't think it'stime yet for folks to start going to jail.
 
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