Couple questions

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Me and a bunch of friends were out camping this weekend in Collville National Forest. We were in kind of deep and not in any sort of designated camp ground. There were other people camping about 150 yards away and we were separated by a bunch of trees and a deep creek.

Well anyways, our neighbors ended calling the cops of us (primarily me). The first officer that arrived said that they came because of a call about automatic weapons and illegal explosives.

The "automatic weapon" was me bump-firing my WASR-10 (AK-47) and the "illegal explosives" were perfectly legal tannerite exploding targets ordered from tannerite.com.

When the first officer arrived, I had just finished shooting the WASR-10 with a group of about 5 people. I set the empty mag on the ground, showed him the chamber was empty and then placed the rifle on the ground when he asked. He explained why he was there and I quickly told him the rifle was legal, only semi-auto, and I was just bump-firing from the hip and also that our explosives are also 100% legal. Naturally, he wanted to see the tannerite. I declined to show it to him at first (thinking he would follow me to my Jeep and take a look around). I went and got a canister of it though after I realized he wasnt going to follow me.

When I get back with the tannerite, another officer shows up and claims to have metal shrapnel from one of our "illegal explosives". I quickly explained the tannerite deal to him and told him if he really did have any metal shrapnel it was impossible for it to be from us. Now that we were completely squared away on the "illegal explosives" issue, I took the tannerite back to my Jeep. When I was walking back, the first officer picks up my rifle and takes it to his Explorer. I assumed he was just running the serial number and/or examining it, but I asked officer #2 just in case and he confirmed my assumption.

So I am really just curious if what he did was legal. Can he just take my gun without my permission when Ive done absolutely nothing wrong or illegal?

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There is some argument about Tannerite being legal in Washington.

It MAY be legal in it's component (binary) form, but once mixed....

You would definiatly not want to get caught transporting it already mixed.

Search for Tannerite and posts from R Y Jones on THR. He generally knows what he's talking about in regards to explosives

http://blog.ryjones.org/2008/05/22/wishing-doesnt-make-it-so/

The area where Dan Tanner is correct is in saying there is no federal regulation (for the most part). If you wish to mix Tannerite and drive it across the road, unless that road is private, you’re breaking the law unless you have 2 CDLs with HAZMAT endorsements, a portable magazine, current inspection, and placards. If you mix Tannerite and store it for over 24 hours mixed, you’ve violated another set of regulations. At the state level, things are much worse. Merely possessing mixed Tannerite in Washington is illegal. Dan can make all of the arguments he wants, but he won’t be paying your attorney’s fees when you’re up for federal time.

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I can understand why people called...

That said, I don't think the officer had any legal right to pick up your rifle and take it back to his jeep. That IMHO constitutes a warrantless seizure. Since it clearly didn't have a selector switch, and they didn't detain you to figure out if the rifle had any internals that would make it full auto, I don't see where they figured they could just grab your gun...

I would write them a letter and ask for their justification in doing so...

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Right Wing Wacko wrote:

There is some argument about Tannerite being legal in Washington.

It MAY be legal in it's component (binary) form, but once mixed....

You would definiatly not want to get caught transporting it already mixed.

Search for Tannerite and posts from R Y Jones on THR. He generally knows what he's talking about in regards to explosives

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Oh yeah, definitely. I only have one mixed at a time and they are detonated ASAP.

I hadn't heard of it being a gray area in WA before. I'll have to look into it more...

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sv_libertarian wrote:

I can understand why people called...

That said, I don't think the officer had any legal right to pick up your rifle and take it back to his jeep. That IMHO constitutes a warrantless seizure. Since it clearly didn't have a selector switch, and they didn't detain you to figure out if the rifle had any internals that would make it full auto, I don't see where they figured they could just grab your gun...

I would write them a letter and ask for their justification in doing so...

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Yeah, I completely understand also. I'm not upset by that aspect at all.

He could definitely tell I was knowledgeable and articulate on firearms and my rights and the fact that he waits until I walk away to take my gun just doesn't sit well with me. Pretty shady and cowardly...

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Brad Cowin wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

I can understand why people called...

That said, I don't think the officer had any legal right to pick up your rifle and take it back to his jeep. That IMHO constitutes a warrantless seizure. Since it clearly didn't have a selector switch, and they didn't detain you to figure out if the rifle had any internals that would make it full auto, I don't see where they figured they could just grab your gun...

I would write them a letter and ask for their justification in doing so...

Click to expand...

Yeah, I completely understand also. I'm not upset by that aspect at all.

He could definitely tell I was knowledgeable and articulate on firearms and my rights and the fact that he waits until I walk away to take my gun just doesn't sit well with me. Pretty shady and cowardly...

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Just out of curiosity, when you did realize that your AK had been illegally seized, did you feel as though asking for it back before he could do anything with it would have just stirred the pot more?

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ATCer wrote:

Brad Cowin wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

I can understand why people called...

That said, I don't think the officer had any legal right to pick up your rifle and take it back to his jeep. That IMHO constitutes a warrantless seizure. Since it clearly didn't have a selector switch, and they didn't detain you to figure out if the rifle had any internals that would make it full auto, I don't see where they figured they could just grab your gun...

I would write them a letter and ask for their justification in doing so...

Click to expand...

Yeah, I completely understand also. I'm not upset by that aspect at all.

He could definitely tell I was knowledgeable and articulate on firearms and my rights and the fact that he waits until I walk away to take my gun just doesn't sit well with me. Pretty shady and cowardly...

Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, when you did realize that your AK had been illegally seized, did you feel as though asking for it back before he could do anything with it would have just stirred the pot more?

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Hard to say. I kind of have a feeling he would have taken it personally, especially with five other people and a fellow officer around. He already seemed a bit butt hurt that he didn't have anything on us. After I showed him that the tannerite was legal, he started looking around a lot more and you could just tell he was looking for any little thing to pin on us.

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I admit I don't readily understand the actual mechanics going on during bump firing (I've never tried it), but anything that makes a firearm even appear to go full auto might very well be discouraged in light of the Olsen case (look here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/9809-1.html ).

Basically, this guy had his ancient Oly arms AR15 do some 2-3 round bursts because of hammer follow due to worn/faulty parts (I believe the disconnector was to blame) and possibly soft-primered ammo. BATFE is railroading the guy and he's been found guilty of having and attempting to transfer an unregistered machine gun. Scary stuff.

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spike89 wrote:

I admit I don't readily understand the actual mechanics going on during bump firing (I've never tried it), but anything that makes a firearm even appear to go full auto might very well be discouraged in light of the Olsen case (look here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/9809-1.html ).

Basically, this guy had his ancient Oly arms AR15 do some 2-3 round bursts because of hammer follow due to worn/faulty parts (I believe the disconnector was to blame) and possibly soft-primered ammo. BATFE is railroading the guy and he's been found guilty of having and attempting to transfer an unregistered machine gun. Scary stuff.

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Olsen had a malfunction firearm and sold it and the asshole that bought it, trying to dodge the feds blamed Olson, but there never was an auto sear and with out one the damn thing is not a machinegun, a very bogus case being undertaken by the Feds. Bump firing is no more illegal the the rotory lever deal that pulls the trigger for yoputhat is available. You are as bad as the sheeple running in fear of the all powerful ATF. Hell my $1000 target 10/22 will double off rounds when it gets dirty.

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Yet another incredibly diplomatic and well-thought out post from Bear.

I'll take that advice to heart: "never express concern to another poster that they are careful to know about other on-going cases of people beingrailroaded by the BATF, because that makes you a sheep."

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I gotta give it to Stevens County officers. They are really good about this sort of thing as opposed to anywhere in western washington.

I grew up on a farm near Deer Park (but in Stevens County) and we had a prowler around there for awhile. Dad and I would go out with our rifles (his AK47 and my SKS) and make sure this idiot left us alone as well as our livestock - of course we called the sheriff, but in southern stevens county at the time, there were a total of two officers on duty I believe.

They showed up 45 minutes later - this was at night, while dad and I had our rifles with us, and didn't say a thing about them. I realize now what a different time that was - and only maybe 15 years ago - where a teenager can have an SKS slung over his shoulder with a sheriff telling him "yeah if you are in fear for your life or property, I'm not going to file charges against you. There's no way we can possibly be here in time, so use your head and don't get hurt."

Anywhere in western washington, I'd be willing to bet that right or wrong, the officers would have let a judge sort out the explosives situation. It sucks that they took your rifle like that, though.

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

spike89 wrote:

I admit I don't readily understand the actual mechanics going on during bump firing (I've never tried it), but anything that makes a firearm even appear to go full auto might very well be discouraged in light of the Olsen case (look here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/9809-1.html ).

Basically, this guy had his ancient Oly arms AR15 do some 2-3 round bursts because of hammer follow due to worn/faulty parts (I believe the disconnector was to blame) and possibly soft-primered ammo. BATFE is railroading the guy and he's been found guilty of having and attempting to transfer an unregistered machine gun. Scary stuff.

Click to expand...

Olsen had a malfunction firearm and sold it and the asshole that bought it, trying to dodge the feds blamed Olson,  but there never was an auto sear and with out one the damn thing is not a machinegun, a very bogus case being undertaken by the Feds.  Bump firing is no more illegal the the rotory lever deal that pulls the trigger for yoputhat is available.  You are as bad as the sheeple running in fear of the all powerful ATF.  Hell my $1000 target 10/22 will double off rounds when it gets dirty.

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:banghead: Take it easy Bear, I'm on your side on this one...

According to this case, if your 10/22 is doing doubles with a single trigger pull, it qualifies it as a machine gun according to the thugs at the BATFE. Of course, they're logic is idiotic and their tactics would give Stalin the giggles. But the implications of this case are huge.

I'm not running in fear of the ATF, but until this gets sorted out and hopefully the ATF gets its nuts cut off, I sure as hell would be cautious about giving anybody any idea that you might be firing full-auto lest you be hauled in by the ATF gestapo, have evidence falsified to support their claims, and a puppet judge and jury convict you on the weakest charge and evidence imaginable.

I do have a healthy fear of playing "drop the soap" in a federal vacation facility. The really scary thing is that Olsen should have won his case, but didn't.