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First LEO Encounter

Machoduck

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Dec 12, 2007
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Covington, WA & Keenesburg, CO
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maclean, I certainly didn't mean to lean on you. If you're up front and honest when you contact citizens about their open carry, none of what's being discussed in this thread would apply to you. I thought it was clear that I was writing from the point of view of an honest, law abiding citizen who just happens to open carry. In that case he can do his damnedest to incriminate me and will only serve to increase my retirement if he proceeds without paying attention to Terry.

I notice that you started from the basic assumption that the investigatee was guilty, while I started from the view of innocence. If I seem a little mouthy to rude cops it's because I have investigated the law and know that I'm legal. The unfortunate truth is that entirely too many cops (again, not you, apparently) seem to resent citizens knowing their rights and the law.

One undeniable truth of life is that some cops pre judge the subject of an investigation. After all, someone called 911, didn't they? Or did they? That's another matter though, isn't it?

I've had two recent encounters with police. The first, in Tacoma, was properly handled by the police; they were polite, reasonable, and well informed. They never tried to cover their ignorance of arcane matters with BS or intimidation. As a consequence, all the citizens involved were polite and reasonable. I never felt that there was an attempt to intimidate or BS us and, if their words later are any indication, neither did anyone else.

Contrast that with my encounter in Kent. The responding officers immediately attempted to intimidate and refused to name the law I was supposed to have violated, describing it amorphously as "scaring people". Was it any wonder that I refused to give my name, CPL, or DL? (I'm fully aware that this is what you were referring to when you said "making everyone's day easier.") Before the Kent encounter I was biased favorably toward the police. Let's just say now that actions have consequences, if only in my viewpoint.

I have always felt that one of my responsibilities inherent in carrying would be to defend a cop, should the need arise. I would still do that today, even if the cops were the KPD officers I encountered last week. I still judge them as good men, even if their marching orders, subtle though they may be, are to intimidate everyone who has a gun. However, I think that it's clear that if the preponderance of future encounters is in the "contempt of citizen" mode, my resolve could wane.
 

maclean

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Machoduck wrote:
maclean, I certainly didn't mean to lean on you. If you're up front and honest when you contact citizens about their open carry, none of what's being discussed in this thread would apply to you. I thought it was clear that I was writing from the point of view of an honest, law abiding citizen who just happens to open carry. In that case he can do his damnedest to incriminate me and will only serve to increase my retirement if he proceeds without paying attention to Terry.

I notice that you started from the basic assumption that the investigatee was guilty, while I started from the view of innocence. If I seem a little mouthy to rude cops it's because I have investigated the law and know that I'm legal. The unfortunate truth is that entirely too many cops (again, not you, apparently) seem to resent citizens knowing their rights and the law.

One undeniable truth of life is that some cops pre judge the subject of an investigation. After all, someone called 911, didn't they? Or did they? That's another matter though, isn't it?

I've had two recent encounters with police. The first, in Tacoma, was properly handled by the police; they were polite, reasonable, and well informed. They never tried to cover their ignorance of arcane matters with BS or intimidation. As a consequence, all the citizens involved were polite and reasonable. I never felt that there was an attempt to intimidate or BS us and, if their words later are any indication, neither did anyone else.

Contrast that with my encounter in Kent. The responding officers immediately attempted to intimidate and refused to name the law I was supposed to have violated, describing it amorphously as "scaring people". Was it any wonder that I refused to give my name, CPL, or DL? (I'm fully aware that this is what you were referring to when you said "making everyone's day easier.") Before the Kent encounter I was biased favorably toward the police. Let's just say now that actions have consequences, if only in my viewpoint.

I have always felt that one of my responsibilities inherent in carrying would be to defend a cop, should the need arise. I would still do that today, even if the cops were the KPD officers I encountered last week. I still judge them as good men, even if their marching orders, subtle though they may be, are to intimidate everyone who has a gun. However, I think that it's clear that if the preponderance of future encounters is in the "contempt of citizen" mode, my resolve could wane.


Fair enough sir - we *all* start out our opinions from our own perspective. I can appreciate where you are coming from.

I'm in the top 10% or so in Pro 2A LEO's, by my reckoning. I value your right to carry a weapon - I carried one before I ever wore a badge, and god willing will carry one when I turn in my badge.

I'm not a huge open carry advocate, but only because I view it as tactically unsound - not because I would prohibit it. I am a HUGE support of carry in general, and spend a great deal of time telling people how to go about it lawfully.

I will always take a safety standpoint which might cause some here angst - I have disarmed folks and left them armed as well, depending on my assessment of my contact at the time and within the constraints of the Constitution under Terry and spinoff cases. I also have a duty not to come home to my boys in a box, after all.

When I have the time and it is safe to do so, I have also always communicated why I was doing what I was doing. It is simply easier to do so. It is polite to do so. It is also professional to do so, my my reckoning. There have been times where I have not been able to safely do so, but I always have time after things have cooled down. Your opinion on this may vary from mine, but at least we know where we stand, right?

I will also always try to make sure people have *good* information, because I believe the 2A cause is harmed by false (or even hopeful) interpretations of case law. If I chime in now and then, it isn't to hurt your cause, it is to help it.

I hope that makes sense, it's been a long day!
 

Mainsail

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Silverdale, Washington, USA
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I ask the two questions (“Are you detaining me?” and “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”) not be a smartass but to clarify the situation. If the cop is merely fishing for information it will be readily apparent and I can proceed from there.

There is, however, the possibility that the officer is genuinely investigating a crime. In that case it’s in everyone’s best interest to cooperate and clear things up so the officer can get back out looking for the real suspect. In this circumstance I would expect to be disarmed, after all, he thinks I look like someone he’s looking for and he has the legal authority to frisk me for weapons and disarm me.

I’m not anti-police by any means. I like that they’re available for when things get hairy and if you’ve ever listened to their radios, you’d know how crappy their day can be. It’s because I like them that I get so disappointed when I hear about an American public servant acting like a jack booted thug. I think we get pigeonholed sometimes because everyone assumes that because we openly carry we don’t appreciate the police. I hope that’s not true. In the case of this deputy, it appears he overstepped his authority.
 

maclean

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Good questions to ask, and a reasonable take on the situation.
 

TechnoWeenie

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A 911 call in of itself is NOT PC/AS/RS. A 911 call is like a 'tip', the tip has to be credible, and be of evidentiary value, Ie. describing a crime. There's no crime, so even a 911 call alone is not enough to warrant a terry stop with a 'man with a gun'. A firearm that is openly carried is of no evidentiary value, since it is legal.

I can call the police and say my neighbors are 'acting funny', doesn't mean the police can kick in the door just because they could be using/manufacturing narcotics.

That's where the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing comes into play.


Standard IANAL disclaimer applies.
 

joeroket

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Dec 5, 2006
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Everett, Washington, USA
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TechnoWeenie wrote:
A 911 call in of itself is NOT PC/AS/RS. A 911 call is like a 'tip', the tip has to be credible, and be of evidentiary value, Ie. describing a crime. There's no crime, so even a 911 call alone is not enough to warrant a terry stop with a 'man with a gun'. A firearm that is openly carried is of no evidentiary value, since it is legal.

I can call the police and say my neighbors are 'acting funny', doesn't mean the police can kick in the door just because they could be using/manufacturing narcotics.

That's where the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing comes into play.


Standard IANAL disclaimer applies.
Correct, but nothing stops them from approaching you and striking up a conversation. As long as the subject reasonably feels that he is free to leave they are well within thier boundaries.

If the initial officer actually did "ask" the OP to stop, as he stated, and did not demand it then he is well within his boundary. Outside his boundary is the demanding of someone to stop, it has been ruled that this alone would constitute a detainment. He complied with all the officers demands/requests and fortunately it worked out in the long run. The next step is to take it up with the officers superiors and resolve the issue to keep it from happening again.
 

kenshin

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May 15, 2008
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Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
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joeroket wrote:
TechnoWeenie wrote:
A 911 call in of itself is NOT PC/AS/RS. A 911 call is like a 'tip', the tip has to be credible, and be of evidentiary value, Ie. describing a crime. There's no crime, so even a 911 call alone is not enough to warrant a terry stop with a 'man with a gun'. A firearm that is openly carried is of no evidentiary value, since it is legal.

I can call the police and say my neighbors are 'acting funny', doesn't mean the police can kick in the door just because they could be using/manufacturing narcotics.

That's where the whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing comes into play.


Standard IANAL disclaimer applies.
Correct, but nothing stops them from approaching you and striking up a conversation. As long as the subject reasonably feels that he is free to leave they are well within thier boundaries.

If the initial officer actually did "ask" the OP to stop, as he stated, and did not demand it then he is well within his boundary. Outside his boundary is the demanding of someone to stop, it has been ruled that this alone would constitute a detainment. He complied with all the officers demands/requests and fortunately it worked out in the long run. The next step is to take it up with the officers superiors and resolve the issue to keep it from happening again.
Absolutely correct, and in fact he did use the words, "please stop", not in a very nice tone however, which would indicate to me that he was asking me to stop. I had no problem complying because I was trying to be polite and maybe get the chance to educate an officer that did not know the laws regarding OC.

However, he went on by ordering me to place my hands on the hood of his car and then immediately took my gun. At which time I did not feel free to leave. I sure as hell wasn't going to let him keep my gun. And, it just kept going downhill from there.

P.S. filed my LESA request for the supposed 911 call and any other information pertinent to the incident this morning.
 

DMR-223

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Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
10
Location
Pullman, Washington, USA
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Mainsail wrote:
I ask the two questions (“Are you detaining me?” and “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”) not be a smartass but to clarify the situation. If the cop is merely fishing for information it will be readily apparent and I can proceed from there.

There is, however, the possibility that the officer is genuinely investigating a crime. In that case it’s in everyone’s best interest to cooperate and clear things up so the officer can get back out looking for the real suspect. In this circumstance I would expect to be disarmed, after all, he thinks I look like someone he’s looking for and he has the legal authority to frisk me for weapons and disarm me.

I’m not anti-police by any means. I like that they’re available for when things get hairy and if you’ve ever listened to their radios, you’d know how crappy their day can be. It’s because I like them that I get so disappointed when I hear about an American public servant acting like a jack booted thug. I think we get pigeonholed sometimes because everyone assumes that because we openly carry we don’t appreciate the police. I hope that’s not true. In the case of this deputy, it appears he overstepped his authority.

MainSail is 100% right. I hope that know that you did exactly the right thing in dealing with their hostility. Instead of making the situation worse, you successfully de-escalated the situation by being calm and co operative with the deupty, even if he was being unreasonable.

unless he was conducting an investigation, he cannot preform a Terry stop and frisk without reasonable suspicion. however it's my understanding that he can without probable cause ask for ID in order to establish somone's identity. this does not constitute an unreasonable search or siezure, however it is borderline harrassment since you did not enter into the situation voluntarily.

the "your causing alarm"... argument is very common, and it's smart to have the R.C.W. 's memorized, i think 9.41.270 is the one your looking for,

in order to be illegal, you must "exhibit, display, or draw any firearm...at a time a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

however, State V. Casad is where your real defense comes from.


I always respond the same way when someone tells me that they feel uncomforable when i open carry.

"Your feelings are not protected under the Constitution, nor are they mentioned in the Bill or Rights or the Preamble......

My rights are.....



Im glad that you handled the situation well, just be curtious and comply with all (LAWFUL) orders. Then when an officer crosses the line you have a very very strong case as compared to if you are hostile and non-cooperative to begin with.


P.S. I hope your Kimber is ok!.... Im more worried about my $1200 Springfield MC Operator getting reefed on in my level 2 serpa by an officer who cant figure out how to activate the release, then i am of acutally being arrested.

Those holsters are amazing!
 

maclean

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DMR-223 wrote:
however, State V. Casad is where your real defense comes from.


DMR, everything you said was spot on, with the exception of the above quote.

Casad is unpublished and does not count - not on the street, and not in court.

It was a half assed measure in our half assed Court of Appeals.
 

Ajetpilot

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Jul 6, 2007
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Olalla, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
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kenshinand I had a nice walk over the same road at the same time of day this afternoon. We had some pamphlets with us in case someone might be interested in the legalities of open carry. We didn't have even one question from anyone, and not onesheriff's deputy showed up for a chat. Oh well, just another routine day OCing. Nice to meet you, kenshin!
 

kenshin

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May 15, 2008
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Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
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gsx1138 wrote:
Hearing these stories kind of scares me away from OC and I have friends who are LEO's. I hope everything goes well with you Kenshin.

I sincerely hope my story hasn't scared you or anyone away from OC. I've also had several very positive OC experiences. Unfortunately, the good OC days don't always get posted. I'll try and post some more positve days soon. :cool:
 

kenshin

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May 15, 2008
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Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
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DMR-223 wrote:
Im glad that you handled the situation well, just be curtious and comply with all (LAWFUL) orders. Then when an officer crosses the line you have a very very strong case as compared to if you are hostile and non-cooperative to begin with.


P.S. I hope your Kimber is ok!.... Im more worried about my $1200 Springfield MC Operator getting reefed on in my level 2 serpa by an officer who cant figure out how to activate the release, then i am of acutally being arrested.

Those holsters are amazing!

Thanks DMR. I agree, it's best to be cooperative with any lawful requests they make. There's no point in being confrontational with the police on the street. You'll only lose.


Thankfully my Kimber is ok. That was one of the things that irritated me the most. Especially since he was wearing a level 3 serpa. Doh!
 

kenshin

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May 15, 2008
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285
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Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
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Ajetpilot wrote:
kenshinand I had a nice walk over the same road at the same time of day this afternoon. We had some pamphlets with us in case someone might be interested in the legalities of open carry. We didn't have even one question from anyone, and not onesheriff's deputy showed up for a chat. Oh well, just another routine day OCing. Nice to meet you, kenshin!

It was lots of fun. Thanks for coming out Ajetpilot. Good to know that there are others in the area. It was great that it was so uneventful! Keep on OCing.
:monkey
 
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