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Thread: Does anyone know definitively OC/CC

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    Though I have a valid Michigan CPL (CCW) I was wondering if anyone has a link or otherwise that describes exactly what is considered Open, and Concealed in the State of Michigan?

    The reason I ask is... I heard, that if your sidearm is AT ALL visable, even in the least, it is considered Open Carry, like you HAVE TO hide it. But have also heard, if the pistol is not COMPLETELY visable (top to bottom) it is considered Concealed Carry.

    Is there a gray area open to LEO inturpitation?

    Again, I have a CPL, so it's not an issue for me either way... just wondering.

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    Big Daddy HMGC wrote:
    Though I have a valid Michigan CPL (CCW) I was wondering if anyone has a link or otherwise that describes exactly what is considered Open, and Concealed in the State of Michigan?

    The reason I ask is... I heard, that if your sidearm is AT ALL visible, even in the least, it is considered Open Carry, like you HAVE TO hide it. But have also heard, if the pistol is not COMPLETELY visible (top to bottom) it is considered Concealed Carry.

    Is there a gray area open to LEO inturpitation?

    Again, I have a CPL, so it's not an issue for me either way... just wondering.
    Hogwash and poppycock. No gray area. We hear this all the time. NEVER listen to an LEO's interpretation. Check out the laws for yourself. See some of the other threads and you will find out what you have been hearing about open carry is wrong. Many here do it every day without incident. Below is what we hand out as a starting point. Use the information when talking to the LEO's or others on the subject, they might learn something.

    You state: "But have also heard, if the pistol is not COMPLETELY visible (top to bottom) it is considered Concealed Carry."

    How can a pistolbe completely visible in a holster unless the holster is clear plastic or invisible? Glue it to your forehead I guess.



    YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN[/b]*[/b]
    [/b]
    1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan[/b] who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.[/b]
    [/b]
    MSP Legal Update Newsletter[/b]: April 2007: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...

    PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d[/b] (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank[/b]. b) A church[/b]. c) A court[/b]. d) A theatre[/b]. e) A sports arena.[/b] f) A day care center[/b]. g) A hospital[/b]. h) An establishment licensed under the [/b]Michigan[/b] liquor control act (BAR[/b]). (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.[/b]
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law.
    [/b]


    Michigan[/b] [/b]State Police Web Site[/b]. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?
    Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose[/b] if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’[/b] as: 1)[/b] While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2)[/b] While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3)[/b] While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4)[/b] While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5)[/b] While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6)[/b] While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.[/b]
    [/b]
    [/b][/b]In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    THE [/b]MICHIGAN[/b] SUPREME COURT CONCLUDED[/b]: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    MCRGO v. [/b]Ferndale[/b]: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.
    [/b]
    [/b]4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.
    [/b]
    ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    BRANDISHING[/b] Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: [/b]…In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish."[/b] This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.[/b]

    5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.
    [/b]
    ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

    [/b]6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.

    [/b]Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”
    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan[/b] [/b]State[/b] Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441[/b]
    “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"[/b]

    ADVISORY NOTE[/b]: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.[/b]


    [/b]*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in [/b]Michigan[/b]. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.[/b]
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
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    Big Daddy HMGC wrote:
    Though I have a valid Michigan CPL (CCW) I was wondering if anyone has a link or otherwise that describes exactly what is considered Open, and Concealed in the State of Michigan?

    The reason I ask is... I heard, that if your sidearm is AT ALL visible, even in the least, it is considered Open Carry, like you HAVE TO hide it. But have also heard, if the pistol is not COMPLETELY visible (top to bottom) it is considered Concealed Carry.

    Is there a gray area open to LEO interpretation?

    Again, I have a CPL, so it's not an issue for me either way... just wondering.
    Welcome to OCDO

    Is there a gray area open to LEO interpretation?

    ALWAYS! The gray area is the mind of the LEO you encounter.

    I have had a few different interpretations by different LEO agencies and officers. The general opinion I have gotten from them overall is if you DON'T have a CPL, you had better not let anything cover any part of that gun not covered by the holster or disguise it as a weaponor they WILL arrest you for a concealed weapon! Second, they always ask why, if I have a CPL, don't I just carry it concealed and avoid any challenge.

    Stick with the info on this forum and you will soon have the knowledge and confidence to carry either oc/cc.



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    Welcome!

    In your case, I simply wouldn't worry about it. With that CPL, you can't go wrong. Sure, I hope you'll keep it visible, because it's important that non gun owners see good people carrying guns while going about their daily lives, but it's entirely up to you.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Big Daddy HMGC wrote:
    Though I have a valid Michigan CPL (CCW) I was wondering if anyone has a link or otherwise that describes exactly what is considered Open, and Concealed in the State of Michigan?

    The reason I ask is... I heard, that if your sidearm is AT ALL visable, even in the least, it is considered Open Carry, like you HAVE TO hide it. But have also heard, if the pistol is not COMPLETELY visable (top to bottom) it is considered Concealed Carry.

    Is there a gray area open to LEO inturpitation?

    Again, I have a CPL, so it's not an issue for me either way... just wondering.
    From what I have seen & heard,police will tell you............

    a) If you have a CPL, they will tell you that any viewing of or printing of you gun is grounds to be arrested for something.

    b) If you don't have a CPL, ANYTHING covering your firearm in anyway means it is conciealed and you will be arrested.

    Truth is, with your CPL if you have your firearm holstered with nothing covering it you can legally go almost anyplace in the state. Only exceptions are Federal laws.

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    1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan[/b] who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL.



    Can someone please give me the actual cite for this portion of the law. I did some research but could not find it. Thanks!

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    The state laws don't give you permission to do anything, only tell you what you CAN'T do.

    You will never find a law that says you CAN do something.

    (No law says you can wear a green shirt on Thursdays but you can.)

    We have NO LAW that says you CAN'T carry your handgun openly so that means you can. We DO have a law that says you can't CONSEAL a handgun so you need a CPL for that.

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan[/b] who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL.



    Can someone please give me the actual cite for this portion of the law. I did some research but could not find it. Thanks!
    It would also be great if you let us know where you got that quote from.

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    I found the quote a few messages up on this forum. I read the entire AG opinon and it seems to talk only about reserve officers. I have not done alot of research on it, but does anyone know of an opinion that specifically addresses the issue of OC by the average person on the street?

    this open carry thing is very interesting to me but, like too many other whimps I want to know I am not going to jail for a crime by OC.

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    ok, I'm dumb.... and I just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet when I posted that.

    *This is only for someone with a CPL*

    Yes, it (the gun) had to have been "SI" before carrying it. If you purchased it new from a FFL it will need to be SI before carrying it.

    Although, if you purchased it from a privite citizen and they had the gun SI already you're good to go.

    The law doesn't state that YOU had to have it SI just that the gun had to be, assumed, at one point in time.



  11. #11
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    dougwg wrote:
    ok, I'm dumb.... and I just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet when I posted that.

    Yes, it (the gun) had to have been "SI" before carrying it. If you purchased it new from a FFL it will need to be SI before carrying it.

    Although, if you purchased it from a privite citizen and they had the gun SI already you're good to go.

    The law doesn't state that YOU had to have it SI just that the gun had to be assumed at one point in time.

    I'll try finding the law....
    Doug, be careful here. If you own the firearm you need to get a SI. Having said that a gray comes into play with CPL holders as they can now carry any legally owned/registered/safety inspected handgun. But if you do not have a CPL you are only allowed to posses a handgun that is registered inyour name.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan[/b] who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL.



    Can someone please give me the actual cite for this portion of the law. I did some research but could not find it. Thanks!
    Not sure what you are asking. Can you ask the question again?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    well, I did get my question partialy answered. Basically, I wanted to know where in the law the quote came from. Someone pointed out that it is not in the law since laws only prohibit things. Which is a very good point.

    I would like to know who or where the quote came from. I also noted that the AG opinion was as to reserve officers - is there any opinion about the average person OC? thanks.

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    Venator wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    ok, I'm dumb....
    Doug, be careful here. .....snip
    fixed

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    well, I did get my question partialy answered. Basically, I wanted to know where in the law the quote came from. Someone pointed out that it is not in the law since laws only prohibit things. Which is a very good point.

    I would like to know who or where the quote came from. I also noted that the AG opinion was as to reserve officers - is there any opinion about the average person OC? thanks.

    AG Opinion 7113, in pertinent part;

    It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.

    Really, all this is saying is; if you are not a "Peace Officer" who is a paid, full-time employed officer with a local police agency with full powers of arrest, you are only a citizen (volunteer reserve) who may carry an exposed,holstered pistol in the gun-free zoneswhile possessing a CPL.

    ETA: exposed


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    theboyzmom wrote:
    well, I did get my question partialy answered. Basically, I wanted to know where in the law the quote came from. Someone pointed out that it is not in the law since laws only prohibit things. Which is a very good point.

    I would like to know who or where the quote came from. I also noted that the AG opinion was as to reserve officers - is there any opinion about the average person OC? thanks.
    The statement you have posted was written by me. If you do not have a CPL you can only posses a handgun that is registered to you, which in Michigan is a safety inspection. As for the open carry portion no law prohibits it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    The way I see it, you should just get the safty inspection to cover your bases. It is not like you are giving up a first born, just a trip to you local police station. My .02 worth.

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    Just wait for the bill that makes SI unnecessary to pass and take effect.

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    Roblamont80 wrote:
    The way I see it, you should just get the safty inspection to cover your bases. It is not like you are giving up a first born, just a trip to you local police station. My .02 worth.
    In Michigan,as a resident, even ifyou have a CPL, your pistol must be registered (Safety Inspection) in order to possess it, on or about your person, in your car, etc.

    See Link: MCRGO

    On June 10th the Senate Judiciary Committee voted unanimously to recommend the passage of SB 370 and SB 371. These bills, in conjunction with HB 4490 and HB 4491, which have already been passed by the House, will eliminate the requirement that any pistol purchaser must have the pistol "safety inspected" by the local police within ten days of purchase.


  20. #20
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    Although I am in general agreement with what is stated here, I do mention a note of caution. I am afraid that there is more "wisdom" in your question than some posters realize. While researching the question of "disorderly conduct" linked with "carrying a firearm through the Michigan Court publications, I do recall that a judge stated that a pistol does not have to be entirely covered to be considered "concealed". In fact, I believe that he stated that if any part was covered, it could be considered concealed. I have, however, misplaced the information in my huge pile of legal .pdf(s) but I will continue searching. When I find it I will post it here.


    Ah, I found it. Not exactly as I remembered it, but instructive.

    In People v. Hernandez-Garcia (2007), the Michigan Appellate Court ruled:

    Concealment, under MCL 750.227(2), "occurs when the pistol is not discernible by the ordinary observation of persons casually observing the person carrying it." People v Kincade, 61 Mich App 498, 504; 233 NW2d 54 (1975). "Absolute invisibility of a weapon is not indispensable to concealment; the weapon need not be totally concealed." Id. at 502.
    ... In this case, the jury asked whether a weapon must be visible from all angles in order to not be considered concealed. The trial court replied that a weapon need not be completely obscured and that minimal concealment, such as placing the weapon in one's waistband, may be sufficient.

    So, my concern goes to the court has basically stated that the weapon needs to be discernible if an ordinary person casually looks at you... Does this mean that when I see people stating here that no one noticed that they were carrying a pistol that a police officer could interpret it was concealed? I know I may just be playing devil's advocate, but I would be cautious in exactly how I am carrying openly. i.e. perhaps the more open and obvious, the better.
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  21. #21
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    DrTodd wrote:
    Although I am in general agreement with what is stated here, I do mention a note of caution. I am afraid that there is more "wisdom" in your question than some posters realize. While researching the question of "disorderly conduct" linked with "carrying a firearm through the Michigan Court publications, I do recall that a judge stated that a pistol does not have to be entirely covered to be considered "concealed". In fact, I believe that he stated that if any part was covered, it could be considered concealed. I have, however, misplaced the information in my huge pile of legal .pdf(s) but I will continue searching. When I find it I will post it here.


    Ah, I found it. Not exactly as I remembered it, but instructive.

    In People v. Hernandez-Garcia (2007), the Michigan Appellate Court ruled:

    Concealment, under MCL 750.227(2), "occurs when the pistol is not discernible by the ordinary observation of persons casually observing the person carrying it." People v Kincade, 61 Mich App 498, 504; 233 NW2d 54 (1975). "Absolute invisibility of a weapon is not indispensable to concealment; the weapon need not be totally concealed." Id. at 502.
    ... In this case, the jury asked whether a weapon must be visible from all angles in order to not be considered concealed. The trial court replied that a weapon need not be completely obscured and that minimal concealment, such as placing the weapon in one's waistband, may be sufficient.

    So, my concern goes to the court has basically stated that the weapon needs to be discernible if an ordinary person casually looks at you... Does this mean that when I see people stating here that no one noticed that they were carrying a pistol that a police officer could interpret it was concealed? I know I may just be playing devil's advocate, but I would be cautious in exactly how I am carrying openly. i.e. perhaps the more open and obvious, the better.

    Thank you for the link Dr.

    I believe, if you're going to CC, then conceal it. If you are going to OC, then keep it fully exposed in a holster (at least level II retention)...no Mexican Carry, but this is just my opinion.

    I suspect that any LEO who intervenes will, at the time,use his/her discretion as to whether or not you are CC or OCand inform (threaten) you that they will let the court sort it out.


    Edit: spelling.

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