Dealing with LEO's

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First off I have to say I have been approached three times by LEO's while OCing. Twice in Oly as the result of 911 calls, and once in Seattle by two beat cops walking around. The two incidents in Oly resulted in me being disarmed. The one in Seattle was a little chit chat without even showing ID.

First off you aren't going to win an argument with cops on the street. Period. End of story. Roll over and take it. It sucks, it really does, but my opinion is end it ASAP, and take it up with their superiors.

Ask why are you being detained. They may have a good answer or it may be BS.

Cooperate. Ask for a supervisor and badge numbers. If they want to see a CPL and you have one, what the heck. It doesn't do any harm, nor does it help your cause to refuse it. They'll find out about it if/when they run you. Save everyone some time.

I believe very few LEO's are out there deliberately trying to prevent OC. Confused on the issue? Heck yeah. Unsure of procedure? Again, yeah. Don't know what to do, and fall back on the closest training they have? Yuppers.

This is where we as OC'rs step in. We are still on the cutting edge of a movement in this state. It will be some time before LEO's have a firm grasp of what to do with OC. We can help the process along immensely by working with them. A cool head and reasonable words are worth more than all the satisfaction of calling someone a jack booted thug.

YES our rights are violated. NO it is not fun. But I do not think it is a deliberate act. Oftentimes THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. Blame their superiors.

In Oly things have gone from "It's legal until someone feels alarmed" to "It's legal." We can effect this same change other places.

Now to head off the name calling flames, I don't care if anyone wants to call me a pussy, a turncoat, a coward, or whatnot.

By training I do sales, customer service and when I have the energy to deal with complete and clueless morons, computer tech support. The three have a lot in common. Problem identification and solving. Assessing your customer and their needs. Presenting what you want done in a fashion that gets others to cooperate. By training and practice I am firm and tough when needed, and a total pushover when called for. I do tend to get my way though.

A LEO encounter to me is like a sales opportunity. What am I selling? A long forgotten civil right. What is my pitch? Well since it involves guns, I better be reasonable, rational and calm. Who is my target audience. If you guessed beat cops, you guessed wrong.

Those fine men and women while exercising a good bit of authority and power, are restrained in a lot of things. One must go over their heads. My target audience, are those in charge. You sell admin, you sell the whole department.

Beat cops are people and have opinions and beliefs as much as anyone else. They are also trained. They have huge latitude in some things, very little in others.

Being reasonable with the beat cops will help your pitch with admin. A person who comes across as a jerk with the cops who stopped you, will not get a warm reception from admin.

Given the nature of our rights and the law, we will get our point across sooner or later. I prefer sooner, and sooner calls for playing The Game.

I would rather be viewed as a rational person who can be worked with than an extremist nut job with a gun.

So I play the game. I keep beating the same drum. I get outside help when needed.

Remember we are dealing with a bureaucratic mindset. It is a tough nut to crack.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and rights are not recovered overnight.

To sum it up, be nice to the guy jacking you up. It will score you points when you file a complaint. Be nice to the Lieutenant or Sergeant or Captain taking your complaint. It will score you a lot more points. Be well informed. Be calm. Firmly state your rights, and stick to your guns.

We must change departmental mindset. It can be slow, but progress can be had.

But the first step is in our dealings with cops.

The second step is our words on this forum. I know of several local LEO's reading this board. With that in mind I phrase my posts accordingly. The foul up I make today, could cause me problems on the street tomorrow.

I am always selling my product and must the integrity of that product in the front of my mind.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Now to head off the name calling flames, I don't care if anyone wants to call me a pussy, a turncoat, a coward, or whatnot.

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That's it sv_lib.....you're a whatnot!


Kidding aside, I think you make perfect sense...."nail on the head" as it were.

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Comp-tech wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Now to head off the name calling flames, I don't care if anyone wants to call me a pussy, a turncoat, a coward, or whatnot.

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That's it sv_lib.....you're a whatnot!


Kidding aside, I think you make perfect sense...."nail on the head" as it were.

Click to expand...

+1

Very well said sv_libertarian.

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Very well said

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Well..... I guess it's OK, considering it's coming from a whatnot.

:quirky:quirky


Seriously, your focus on the long-term goal is particularly good. What a great reminder!

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Intresting post,



I can see your point of view on this subject i just cant agree with it, We have RIGHTS and its not the polices place to take them away from us without due process, If i cant please ignorance to the law either can they.

Filing complaints only makes matters worse. Then the cops who get into trouble find someone else who is OCing and bust him or her as the case my be out of anger because you got them introuble and they got put in there place.

The mentality of MOST cops is that they are the law and even if they are dead wrong about the law they are still right. So if you want to sell something to LEO's sell this...

We have the RIGHT to observe and exercise our constitutional rights, They are public servants who get paid a very comforable living for what they do. And if they are not up on all the laws then they need not wear the badge they like to shove in to peoples faces.

So sell what you want but in the end if the LEO's see that we have rights and we will "stick to our guns" they will have to conform or they can resign and go be a security guard.

After all if they did there jobs as they are expected 2 and upheld the oath they swore to we as citizens wouldnt need guns. But since they can not they have no reason to pressure us because some gun hating tree humping ignorant yokal dosnt think its ok for us to OC/CC.



Hows that saying go???? God made man, Samual Colt made man equal?:cuss:

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jarhead1055 wrote:

Intresting post,



I can see your point of view on this subject i just cant agree with it, We have RIGHTS and its not the polices place to take them away from us without due process, If i cant please ignorance to the law either can they.

Filing complaints only makes matters worse. Then the cops who get into trouble find someone else who is OCing and bust him or her as the case my be out of anger because you got them introuble and they got put in there place.

The mentality of MOST cops is that they are the law and even if they are dead wrong about the law they are still right. So if you want to sell something to LEO's sell this...

We have the RIGHT to observe and exercise our constitutional rights, They are public servants who get paid a very comforable living for what they do. And if they are not up on all the laws then they need not wear the badge they like to shove in to peoples faces.

So sell what you want but in the end if the LEO's see that we have rights and we will "stick to our guns" they will have to conform or they can resign and go be a security guard.

After all if they did there jobs as they are expected 2 and upheld the oath they swore to we as citizens wouldnt need guns. But since they can not they have no reason to pressure us because some gun hating tree humping ignorant yokal dosnt think its ok for us to OC/CC.



Hows that saying go???? God made man, Samual Colt made man equal?:cuss:

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No, you didn't see my point. I am convinced that nearly every encounter has been out of ingnorance, lack of training on the part of LEO's.

How can they take away a right they are not aware of?

There was a time in history when it was acceptable to treat persons of color differently. Ignorance, and lack of training.

See the difference some training and education does?

We must educate agencies as to our rights, in order to ensure the do not have a leg to stand on if and when they continue to violate them.

Let me put it crudely, and my apologies to the cops out there reading this.
Cops on the street are underlings. They jump the way they are told to jump.
Find the people giving the orders and deal with them.
It's not the guy on the street "denying rights" it's the guy pulling strings. Captains, Commanders, Chiefs, departmental lawyers, city attorneys, city councils, mayors.
This is a case where one starts at the top, and things trickle down.

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Every cop in the state of WA has to complete the academy part of the academy is civil rights and the consitution, So your telling me that if i break the law and i dont know about it then i will not get fined or arrested for it? After all i am just a pion what do i know?

Exactly my point, id get fined or some sort of punishment because i didnt know the laws yet you prepose that its ok for the cops to have ignorance of the law thats causes us OCers grief?



As i stated before i understand your point i just dont agree with it.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

Every cop in the state of WA has to complete the academy part of the academy is civil rights and the consitution, So your telling me that if i break the law and i dont know about it then i will not get fined or arrested for it? After all i am just a pion what do i know?

Exactly my point, id get fined or some sort of punishment because i didnt know the laws yet you prepose that its ok for the cops to have ignorance of the law thats causes us OCers grief?



As i stated before i understand your point i just dont agree with it.

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I said I can see why they are ignorant of the law. If you can prove to me every single cop has the same level of knowledge about OC that we do, I'll concede your point. Show me that they cover this in depth in academy and I'll concede your point. Let's face it, the laws we rely upon are widely misunderstood. We are dealing with beaureacratic incompotence here.

The point I am trying to make is that it is not worth the time and bother to get worked up over the typical cop on the street not knowing what is what. Make sure their boss knows what is up, and word will filter down real quick. As in departmental training quick.

Then, once cops have training on the subject we stand a better chance of getting on beat cops who continue to hassle OC'rs.

As I said before some of this sucks royally, but we can sit here and jump all over beat cops, or we can change the system.

Jumping on beat cops won't work. Changing the system does.

I see your frustration and feel it, but deep inside my twisted salesman's heart I know perfectly well I can't sell what I'm selling to the guy who tells me to put my hands behind my head.

I can sell it to his boss though. And his boss will dang well make sure that the beat cops know what is up.

All I'm saying is that cop bashing, or resorting to jingoism does no favors. Beat cops for the most part are the wrong target. Now in places that have been trained, I will change my tune. If I get detained/searched/disarmed in Oly again, you can bet your bottom dollar I will be suing a lot of people. Same for Lacey. If I had to suffer the indiganties of a full blown stop/search/etc... in Seattle I would sue. Anyplace that has documentation showing the PD knows the legality of OC would feel the sting of my lawyer.

Places without documentation? Fix it fast or the whole lawyer thing again.

Also you have to prove to me that cops are engaging in deliberate and willful attempts to violate rights. I don't think they are. I think they are acting out of ignorance. That may not fly in some minds as acceptable, but rather than beat my head against a wall, I try to find a door.

Of course that involves swallowing some pride, and holding some emotions in check at time. Makes victory all the sweeter though.

I for one choose not to perpetuate the "Us Vs Them" mentality that seems to pervade at times.

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I for one choose not to perpetuate the "Us Vs Them" mentality that seems to pervade at times

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That's another very good point. Being the old-fashioned guy that I sometimes am, I think that Sir Robert Peele had the right idea when it comes to running a police department, especially in this regard:
Your sentence quoted above nicely addresses the question of what to do if the police don't uphold their end of the bargain (i.e when they take stuff into "Us vs Them" territory.) Instead of taking that and running with it further in the "Us vs Them" direction, it's far better for us to nudge them (or push or sue if it comes to that) back onto the "we're all citizens in this together" side of the line.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Let me put it crudely, and my apologies to the cops out there reading this.
Cops on the street are underlings. They jump the way they are told to jump.
Find the people giving the orders and deal with them.
It's not the guy on the street "denying rights" it's the guy pulling strings. Captains, Commanders, Chiefs, departmental lawyers, city attorneys, city councils, mayors.
This is a case where one starts at the top, and things trickle down.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely the truth even with internal dealings among themselves. They do what they are told and when they are told to do it. I have seen it firsthand multiple times in different angencies. The street officer is only obeying a direct order and until that order changes he will not change.

One thing everyone has to remember, and it seems sv_libertarian has a good grasp on it, is that superiors are liable in court the same as the officers are, especially if they fail to give correct training and direction to thier officers. The last thing a superior wants is to get screwed in court because his officer didn't know.

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joeroket wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Let me put it crudely, and my apologies to the cops out there reading this.
Cops on the street are underlings. They jump the way they are told to jump.
Find the people giving the orders and deal with them.
It's not the guy on the street "denying rights" it's the guy pulling strings. Captains, Commanders, Chiefs, departmental lawyers, city attorneys, city councils, mayors.
This is a case where one starts at the top, and things trickle down.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely the truth even with internal dealings among themselves. They do what they are told and when they are told to do it. I have seen it firsthand multiple times in different angencies. The street officer is only obeying a direct order and until that order changes he will not change.

One thing everyone has to remember, and it seems sv_libertarian has a good grasp on it, is that superiors are liable in court the same as the officers are, especially if they fail to give correct training and direction to thier officers. The last thing a superior wants is to get screwed in court because his officer didn't know.

Click to expand...

I'm happy to read this discussion, but I will have to take issue with one precept.

In Washington, we practice what is called "professional policing," as opposed to what you might call "fraternal policing" as established in large east coast cities.

To that end, the average patrol officer does not make decisions with a lot of input from a supervisor. In many departments in this State, it is simply not practical to run every decision by a supervisor or department head.

The training process has evolved to support this, creating independant thinkers capable of making decisions based upon the training in law, case law, and civil rights.

The individual officer actually plays a greater part in the decision process regarding a contact than you might possibly imagine. He or she brings their knowledge and their bias to every contact. Usually this works out well, given the stringent hiring practices.

Now here is where the rub comes in. Training and policy *ARE* set by department heads, and to some extent street level supervision.

If you have an officer or group of officers who are consistently failing the grade on open carry, THEN your point has great merit and application. THEN is when you approach the department head and provide downward direction or training.

Just pointing out that the idea of cops as mindless cogs really has little merit in most Washington police agencies. In all but a few that I have associated or experienced, the basic decisions always rest with the patrol officer until the patrol officer has screwed up.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

Intresting post,



I can see your point of view on this subject i just cant agree with it, We have RIGHTS and its not the polices place to take them away from us without due process, If i cant please ignorance to the law either can they.

Filing complaints only makes matters worse. Then the cops who get into trouble find someone else who is OCing and bust him or her as the case my be out of anger because you got them introuble and they got put in there place.

Your post assumes a mentality among police officers that I find offensive.

It would be liken to me saying the Marines in Falujah all colluded to cover things up when their comrade shot the insurgent in the back.

Some people did say it, but not me. Marine, how does it feel to be lumped in like that?

The mentality of MOST cops is that they are the law and even if they are dead wrong about the law they are still right. So if you want to sell something to LEO's sell this...

The mentality of all Marines is...

See where I am going with this? It's BS and weak thought. Cops are people, and people are flawed. One bad experience does not paint the whole bunch.

We have the RIGHT to observe and exercise our constitutional rights, They are public servants who get paid a very comforable living for what they do. And if they are not up on all the laws then they need not wear the badge they like to shove in to peoples faces.


So sell what you want but in the end if the LEO's see that we have rights and we will "stick to our guns" they will have to conform or they can resign and go be a security guard.

After all if they did there jobs as they are expected 2 and upheld the oath they swore to we as citizens wouldnt need guns. But since they can not they have no reason to pressure us because some gun hating tree humping ignorant yokal dosnt think its ok for us to OC/CC.

You have *completely* missed the intelligent point made by another poster here, when they referenced Robert Peel.

The police will never solve your problems to the point that you won't need a gun. The police were never intended for that!

"The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existance." ~ Robert Peel

Click to expand...

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maclean wrote:

joeroket wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

Let me put it crudely, and my apologies to the cops out there reading this.
Cops on the street are underlings. They jump the way they are told to jump.
Find the people giving the orders and deal with them.
It's not the guy on the street "denying rights" it's the guy pulling strings. Captains, Commanders, Chiefs, departmental lawyers, city attorneys, city councils, mayors.
This is a case where one starts at the top, and things trickle down.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely the truth even with internal dealings among themselves. They do what they are told and when they are told to do it. I have seen it firsthand multiple times in different angencies. The street officer is only obeying a direct order and until that order changes he will not change.

One thing everyone has to remember, and it seems sv_libertarian has a good grasp on it, is that superiors are liable in court the same as the officers are, especially if they fail to give correct training and direction to thier officers. The last thing a superior wants is to get screwed in court because his officer didn't know.

Click to expand...

I'm happy to read this discussion, but I will have to take issue with one precept.

In Washington, we practice what is called "professional policing," as opposed to what you might call "fraternal policing" as established in large east coast cities.

To that end, the average patrol officer does not make decisions with a lot of input from a supervisor. In many departments in this State, it is simply not practical to run every decision by a supervisor or department head.

The training process has evolved to support this, creating independant thinkers capable of making decisions based upon the training in law, case law, and civil rights.

The individual officer actually plays a greater part in the decision process regarding a contact than you might possibly imagine. He or she brings their knowledge and their bias to every contact. Usually this works out well, given the stringent hiring practices.

Now here is where the rub comes in. Training and policy *ARE* set by department heads, and to some extent street level supervision.

If you have an officer or group of officers who are consistently failing the grade on open carry, THEN your point has great merit and application. THEN is when you approach the department head and provide downward direction or training.

Just pointing out that the idea of cops as mindless cogs really has little merit in most Washington police agencies. In all but a few that I have associated or experienced, the basic decisions always rest with the patrol officer until the patrol officer has screwed up.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Maybe I should have stated that if they are directed to deal with an act in a specific manner then they will. I wasn't trying to imply that al thier decisions are ran through a supervisor before the action is taken nor do I think they are mindless cogs. I do have to tell you that I know the internal workings of dept.'s probably better than any non-LEO here, I come from a huge list of LEO's from Chiefs to patrol officers and everything in between. I know that some officers will retalliate against citizens and that superiors will order harrassment of problem citizens. Granted it is rare but it does not change the fact that it does happen. I know for a fact that certain dealings are dealt with under order/direction, whichever way you want to put it, from thier superior, but I do agree that they bring thier own opinion and knowledge and do use it in the majority of thier dealings with citizens.

I have seen a Capt. and Deputy Chief get terminated for ordering officers carry out unlawful orders or risk retalliation in any form up to and including termination. I do know it happens and in this instance it the system eventually worked, but it does not always end up that way.

Also just so you know where I stand I do not question any street officers actions where a firearm is involved, at the time they are dealing with it, only afterwards and with facts will I voice my opinion on it. You se my father was slain in the line of duty almost 24 years ago with his own service revolver as the result of a scuffle with a man who suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. I have nothing more than the utmost respect for officers, especially patrol officers, because they have one of the most demanding and stressful jobs around in my opinion.

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I do not see how u can compare a highly trained Marine to a rookie cop? A Cop Spends his first year on the beat with a senior officer as a trainer, A Marine spends damn near is first year (depending on MOS) in training learning and gaining experience.

I get the feeling that you are or at one time were in law enforcement, Care to share with the rest of us which department and how much time you have in?

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jarhead1055 wrote:

I do not see how u can compare a highly trained Marine to a rookie cop? A Cop Spends his first year on the beat with a senior officer as a trainer, A Marine spends damn near is first year (depending on MOS) in training learning and gaining experience.

I get the feeling that you are or at one time were in law enforcement, Care to share with the rest of us which department and how much time you have in?

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Jarhead you just said that both spend the same amount of time training, learning, and gaining experience. Did I miss somthing? BTW A rookie cop spends 4 and 1/2 months in the BLEA and then a month or so learning local ordinances, then between 4 months to a year on the street with an FTO, dependant on the dept. Seattle is about 4 months and Everett is 9 months to a year.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

I do not see how u can compare a highly trained Marine to a rookie cop? A Cop Spends his first year on the beat with a senior officer as a trainer, A Marine spends damn near is first year (depending on MOS) in training learning and gaining experience.

A rookie police officer spends eighteen months before they are considered profficient and removed from probation.

I was in the service as a military police officer. I received half the training in the service that I have in the civilian world. Even now the services are converting to civilian policing to keep up as line MP's convert to force protection.

I get the feeling that you are or at one time were in law enforcement, Care to share with the rest of us which department and how much time you have in?

No, and 12 years, respectively.

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maclean wrote:

jarhead1055 wrote:

I do not see how u can compare a highly trained Marine to a rookie cop? A Cop Spends his first year on the beat with a senior officer as a trainer, A Marine spends damn near is first year (depending on MOS) in training learning and gaining experience.

A rookie police officer spends eighteen months before they are considered profficient and removed from probation.

I was in the service as a military police officer. I received half the training in the service that I have in the civilian world. Even now the services are converting to civilian policing to keep up as line MP's convert to force protection.

I get the feeling that you are or at one time were in law enforcement, Care to share with the rest of us which department and how much time you have in?

No, and 12 years, respectively.

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Proficient? The last thing i want is a proficient LEO helping me, I want a WELL TRAINIED one besides being a MP is not even close to being a Civi LEO. The side of a cop car reads "To protect and serve" protect and serve who? not me i cant count on them to protect me if i could i wouldnt need my guns.

It seems to me that you are defending civi LEO's but i dont see them doing the worlds policing, I look around and i see SOLDIERS and Marines doing the same work the civi LEO's do and for half the pay and half the gear.

Id feel alot better about Law enforcement IF they were military.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

maclean wrote:

jarhead1055 wrote:

I do not see how u can compare a highly trained Marine to a rookie cop? A Cop Spends his first year on the beat with a senior officer as a trainer, A Marine spends damn near is first year (depending on MOS) in training learning and gaining experience.

A rookie police officer spends eighteen months before they are considered profficient and removed from probation.

I was in the service as a military police officer. I received half the training in the service that I have in the civilian world. Even now the services are converting to civilian policing to keep up as line MP's convert to force protection.

I get the feeling that you are or at one time were in law enforcement, Care to share with the rest of us which department and how much time you have in?

No, and 12 years, respectively.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Proficient? The last thing i want is a proficient LEO helping me, I want a WELL TRAINIED one besides being a MP is not even close to being a Civi LEO. The side of a cop car reads "To protect and serve" protect and serve who? not me i cant count on them to protect me if i could i wouldnt need my guns.

It seems to me that you are defending civi LEO's but i dont see them doing the worlds policing, I look around and i see SOLDIERS and Marines doing the same work the civi LEO's do and for half the pay and half the gear.

Id feel alot better about Law enforcement IF they were military.

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The Military "World Police" are just beginning to learn what Street Cops have been doing for years. CQB is a Police tactic that the military is finally discovering useful as they begin to start doing a similar job as a street Cop.

A typical marine's job and that of a Cop are VERY different in nature.

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If my memory is worth a damn i believe the LEO's SWAT team learned from SF and they have been doing it for 40 years.

But in all fairness just to show that i am not set in my ways this OCT the local PD has a reserve acadamy and i am going to do the job you are so quick to defend.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

If my memory is worth a damn i believe the LEO's SWAT team learned from SF and they have been doing it for 40 years.

But in all fairness just to show that i am not set in my ways this OCT the local PD has a reserve acadamy and i am going to do the job you are so quick to defend.

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Excellent!

I look forward to hearing from you after your first year, and I'm betting the conversation will be a good one.

You'll get a kick out of it, I'm sure.