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Thread: 1000ft. from K-12 School

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    At the May VCDL meeting in NoVA it was briefly mentioned thatpeople OCing could possibly be arrested and charged for carrying a loaded firearm within 1000ft of a K-12 school. I also remember hearing that CHP holders are exempt.

    Well, I do not have (and cannot get for another 2 years) a CHP so I was just curious about this law as I often drive on roads that are well within 1000ft from schools, and I don't want to be arrested if I'm OCing. I would also like to know how this law is even legal seeing that it prohibits people from excercising their rights on public property (the land that is not "school property" ). If a person is not on "school property" I can't see how they can prohibit us from carrying. 1000ft is a long distance as well, a few football fields in length :what:

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Federal law that was struck down by Supreme Court. It was re-enacted by congress, with an interstate commerce clause, but to the best of my knowledge has never been invoked. Used as a tactic by imperialist thugs to try and scare citizens into not carrying firearms.

    About as enforceable as the law against eating tomatoes on Sunday.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    About as enforceable as the law against eating tomatoes on Sunday.
    Well there is a law on the books in Virginia that prohibits the buying and selling of toilet paper on Sunday....and there's another that prohibits kissing your wife in public on Sunday...
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    Text is below of the amended law:

    Code:
    revised Gun Free School Zones Act, enacted September 30, 1996.
    
    Text of Conference Report on H.R. 3610
    CONFERENCE REPORT ON H.R. 3610 
    DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 1997 
    [CR page H-11743]
    
    Sec. 657. Section 922(q) of title 18, United States Code, is
    amended to read as follows:
    
    "(q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that--
    
    "(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a
    pervasive, nationwide problem;
    
    "(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate
    movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
    
    "(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate
    commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around
    schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee
    on the Judiciary the House of Representatives and the Committee on
    the Judiciary of the Senate;
    
    "(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its
    component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they
    are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
    
    "(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary
    citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through
    certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and
    gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to
    school for the same reason;
    
    "(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has
    resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
    
    "(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse
    impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the
    United States;
    
    "(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost
    impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves--even States,
    localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to
    prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts
    unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States
    or localities to take strong measures; and
    
    "(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce
    clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures
    to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by
    enactment of this subsection.
    
    "(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    
    "(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm--
    
    "(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    
    "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
    do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
    law to receive the license;
    
    "(iii) that is--
    
    "(I) not loaded; and
    
    "(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
    on a motor vehicle;
    
    "(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a
    school in the school zone;
    
    "(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered
    into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual;
    
    "(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her
    official capacity; or
    
    "(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual
    while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access
    to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
    premises is authorized by school authorities.
    
    "(3)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be
    unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for
    the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a
    firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or
    foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
    
    "(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a
    firearm--
    
    "(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    
    "(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school
    zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
    
    "(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered
    into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual; or
    
    "(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her
    official capacity.
    
    "(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as
    preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting
    a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this
    subsection.".
    Says nothing about 1000 feet of a "school zone".

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    I can't find anything defining school zones either... Maybe someone better at scouring code can.

    Me (possibly) living within a 1000 feet of a "school zone" would mean that i can't even own firearms in my abode!

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    I can't find anything defining school zones either... Maybe someone better at scouring code can.

    Me (possibly) living within a 1000 feet of a "school zone" would mean that i can't even own firearms in my abode!
    As I recall, even in the struck down version, there was an exemption for possession on your own property. See B (i) above...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    roscoe13 wrote:
    As I recall, even in the struck down version, there was an exemption for possession on your own property. See B (i) above...
    Blah sometimes I can't even read

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    So, as long as you avoid sidewalks "on school property" I would assume you are fine?

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    The Code quoted above left out the section on "definitions".

    See: http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf For some reason I can't link to .pdf's, so you'll have to type it in. The part about 1000' is covered in the definitions at the bottom of the page.

    I would not want to be a test case.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.

    So.. walkin by with it in your holster would be just fine?
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    ed wrote:
    So.. walkin by with it in your holster would be just fine?
    This is the only code I know of where you can get in trouble off school property.

    Walking by while you OC would not be a violation that I am aware of.

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    Whew! That means I can actually drive by the school with no CHP and not get arrested Saves me from driving the long route if I were to be OCing for any reason and driving by a school. Also good knowing that going to a building accross the street and OCing would be fine also.

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    CRF250rider1000 wrote:
    Whew! That means I can actually drive by the school with no CHP and not get arrested Saves me from driving the long route if I were to be OCing for any reason and driving by a school. Also good knowing that going to a building accross the street and OCing would be fine also.
    You did read the rest of the thread, particularly the part about the federal law against firearms within 1000' of school property? Having a license issued by the state in which the school is located?

    You can be your rent there is an even chance somebody will call 911 yelling, "Man with gun in front of school!"

    I would not want to be the test case on the federal law.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Going by the confusion in this thread makes me feel better that I'm not the only one!

    So if I understand correctly it is a class 6 felony to OC within 1000 feet of "school property" if I do not have a VA CHP.

    If that's the case it sounds like another national parks situation, where you can be driving along and instantly become a felon even though the property is not marked as being prohibited. Gotta love it


    forgot to add, thank you to whoever changed the thread description to something more useful than the "..." I put in

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    nova wrote:
    Snipped...


    forgot to add, thank you to whoever changed the thread description to something more useful than the "..." I put in
    You are welcome.

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    Citizen wrote:
    The Code quoted above left out the section on "definitions".

    See: http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf For some reason I can't link to .pdf's, so you'll have to type it in. The part about 1000' is covered in the definitions at the bottom of the page.

    I would not want to be a test case.

    But B.i doesn't apply to the "school zone" it applies directly to the school grounds. So if you are standing across the street OC'ing your firearm you are not violating the Federal Law.

    Even the state law which LEO posted covers brandishing, so it doesn't apply in this case, even though it does give the "1000ft" rule

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ed wrote:
    So.. walkin by with it in your holster would be just fine?
    This is the only code I know of where you can get in trouble off school property.

    Walking by while you OC would not be a violation that I am aware of.
    if you are brandishing and waving it around like a mad man

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    hsmith wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    ed wrote:
    So.. walkin by with it in your holster would be just fine?
    This is the only code I know of where you can get in trouble off school property.

    Walking by while you OC would not be a violation that I am aware of.
    if you are brandishing and waving it around like a mad man
    Then yes... if you did it within 1000 feet of the school you are now committing a class 6 felony.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Then yes... if you did it within 1000 feet of the school you are now committing a class 6 felony.
    While interpreting the letter of the law you are fine OC'ing off school property, all you would need is an overzealous noob LEO to arrest you for it to poop over your day. (And no, for those that will say it is anti-LEO, most wouldn't).

    I think the Federal and state laws, while clear and permissive of OC, create a bad situation for those that OC or CC.

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    hsmith wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Then yes... if you did it within 1000 feet of the school you are now committing a class 6 felony.
    While interpreting the letter of the law you are fine OC'ing off school property, all you would need is an overzealous noob LEO to arrest you for it to poop over your day. (And no, for those that will say it is anti-LEO, most wouldn't).

    I think the Federal and state laws, while clear and permissive of OC, create a bad situation for those that OC or CC.
    He would have to believe that OCing is brandishing. Not that it has not been tried, right?

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    Unfortunately, the Federal GFSZA is in no way dependent on state law. The definition of a school zone is found in 18USC921:

    (25) The term ``school zone'' means--
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private
    school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a
    public, parochial or private school.

    The bottom line is this; if you carry a firearm on public property in a school zone, loaded or not (and by carry I mean in a holster on your person or in a vehicle within reach and not in a locked case), and you DO NOT have a valid license/permit to carry issued in the State where the school is located, you are in violation. This is particularly egregious since the BATFE does NOT recognize any sort of reciprocity agreements between states; if you have a VA permit, currently considered validby NC, and you carry through a school zone in NC, they interpret that as a violation. See the BATFE letter on the GFSZA at http://www.handgunlaw.us/state-link.htm; the link is on thaqt page. Additionally, even ifyou DO have a permit in a state that allows you to carry in a GFSZ, there is no provision in the law allowing DISCHARGE of a firearm in self-defense; if you are chased into the street by an assailant in a school zone, and defend yourself lawfully, you won't be charged under State law, but the Feds could prosecute you for it. This law is generally not enforced... yet. I believe that getting this fixed is as important, if not more so, than the National Park ban; it's a lot easier to stay out of Parks than school zones while conducting your daily business.

    Note that if you have a non-resident permit for, say, FL, and you visit FL and carry in a GFSZ, you are good to go, since that permit WAS issued by "the state in which the school is located". It's the reciprocal agreement states where you are carrying on an out-of-state permit that you need to worry about. Sorry, LEO229, but VA Code has nothing to do with this...

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    hsmith wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    The Code quoted above left out the section on "definitions".

    See: http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf For some reason I can't link to .pdf's, so you'll have to type it in. The part about 1000' is covered in the definitions at the bottom of the page.

    I would not want to be a test case.

    But B.i doesn't apply to the "school zone" it applies directly to the school grounds. So if you are standing across the street OC'ing your firearm you are not violating the Federal Law.

    Even the state law which LEO posted covers brandishing, so it doesn't apply in this case, even though it does give the "1000ft" rule
    The exception is for private property. Standing on the public sidewalk would be a violation.


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    Pretty good summary although a violation occurs even if the firearm is not within reach - it must be locked up. And there are four other exceptions (iv)-(vii) that are probably rarely used.

    johnfenter wrote:
    Unfortunately, the Federal GFSZA is in no way dependent on state law. The definition of a school zone is found in 18USC921:

    (25) The term ``school zone'' means--
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private
    school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a
    public, parochial or private school.

    The bottom line is this; if you carry a firearm on public property in a school zone, loaded or not (and by carry I mean in a holster on your person or in a vehicle within reach and not in a locked case), and you DO NOT have a valid license/permit to carry issued in the State where the school is located, you are in violation. //redacted//

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    Not so sure on sidewalks, apjonas. It may be a public right of way, but it's probably not public property. The acid test is simple; ifsomeone slips and injures themselves on an unshoveled or icy sidewalk, who gets sued? Usually not the city/county. It's the private property owner, where the plat map at the courthouse shows the sidewalk as being an easement or right of way across their land. Sometimes, in a development, the plat even covers the street. But usually, the street is public property.

    I make it a practice when walking past a school to cross the street, and use the sidewalk on the other side; it's possible that the sidewalk next to the school is technically on school property (per the plat map), which puts me in violation of VA law. Something to think about...

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    johnfenter wrote:
    Not so sure on sidewalks, apjonas. It may be a public right of way, but it's probably not public property. The acid test is simple; ifsomeone slips and injures themselves on an unshoveled or icy sidewalk, who gets sued? Usually not the city/county. It's the private property owner, where the plat map at the courthouse shows the sidewalk as being an easement or right of way across their land. Sometimes, in a development, the plat even covers the street. But usually, the street is public property.

    I make it a practice when walking past a school to cross the street, and use the sidewalk on the other side; it's possible that the sidewalk next to the school is technically on school property (per the plat map), which puts me in violation of VA law. Something to think about...
    The sidewalk is ALWAYS public property unless it is on YOUR property leading up to your house.

    Many localities require you to shovel off the snow from the sidewalk in front of your house.You are not responsible for the sidewalk off your property in a law suit nor are you required to repair raised edges that could cause people to trip and fall.

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