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Thread: Terrible OC Experience

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    This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me. Also, from here on forward, member UTOC-45-44 will be referred to as "TJ".


    I went to Doug's Shoot N' Sport today for my concealed permit class, which ended around 12:15 p.m. or so. I arranged for TJ to meet me down at Doug's when the class ended because he wanted some help doing a far strip down on his Kimber 1911.

    The class ended, we met up, and TJ was kind enough to try and help me get my paperwork done. We didn't call BCI ahead of time to see if they were open, so we blindly headed out looking for a place to notarize my permit application. We decided to go to Wells Fargo over at the Valley Fair mall in West Valley City. I was openly carrying on my hip because I needed my firearm for the firing portion of our class.

    We arrived at Wells Fargo, and I took my firearm off the dash and holstered it after we got out. I made sure it was in plain sight and we walked into the bank. For the first few moments, no one was available to help us. After about a minute, a female banker asked how she could help us. If she didn't see my firearm, she couldn't really miss TJ's shoulder rig which had a couple of extra mag holders, his SW 40, his handcuffs, and a Kimber 1911 on his hip.

    She didn't seem threatened or surprised when she began talking to us and we told her we wanted some notary services. She said that the notary was out for the day and told us to try Albertsons down the street on 3500 South. TJ asked if she could call ahead and make sure the notary was there so we didn't waste any more time. She seemed happy to do so and went to her desk. We waited and waited while she called, and told us that she tried 3 branches and all the notaries were out.

    We thanked her and began to wonder what to do. She started helping the next people in line when I wanted to find a phonebook. We didn't want to bug her, so we waited around another 15 seconds (in the bank about 4 minutes now) when a male employee came out from behind the bank tellers' area. I flagged him over and asked if he had a phone book.

    He said no and that the mall didn't have one (weird), then immediately told us that firearms were not allowed on the premesis. I asked if that was Wells Fargo policy and he said yes. I said Ok and started to leave with TJ. TJ, on his way out, told him he would be taking his business else where and that they should have posted a sign on the door about their policy (we realize that these signs don't have any legal justification until we are asked to leave, but it was just a suggestion).

    So, we left promptly, and TJ decided to try his credit union which was open over at Harmons grocery store on 3500 South. We went in there and got the paper notarized and went back to his place to clean his firearm.


    GETTING TO THE JUICY PART!!


    About an hour into cleaning his gun, a LEO pulls up in front of the house. TJ had called 4 hours earlier about a suspicious vehicle that was gone and they finally came to check it out. I'm not sure how the conversation began, because I was in the driveway for the first minute, but it came out that we were the "guys from the bank".

    The officer calls it in and was joking with the man on the radio, claiming he located the "bandits" and laughing along with us. I was standing next to the window, firearm on my hip, next to TJ and everything was cool. We were telling him that we were there to get my paperwork notarized, and he just listened without getting antsy at all. He eventually got out after a few minutes of waiting, and asked for my ID. I handed it to him on top of my wallet to take and he took that as a signal that he could have my wallet. He opened it up and I promptly asked for it back. He asked if I had a permit and we reiterated to him that we were at the bank to get my paper notarized, so no, I didn't have a permit.

    He decided it was time to check that I was carrying properly, and had me face away, fingers interlaced, while he disarmed me. Then another officer showed up to talk to the three of us. The first officer made it clear that I should stay by the front of the car while my firearm was on his trunk, slide back, mag out. Of course I complied, but TJ went around the car to talk to them. At some point a third officer showed up and the real discussions began.

    They whipped out some sort of law code that they were claiming said that TJ couldn't open carry EVEN WITH A CONCEALED PERMIT. They think that being trusted by BCI and getting a permit somehow makes it illegal to carry openly with a loaded chamber. I was by the front of a running cop car still, so I couldn't make out exactly what they were saying. I eventually asked the officer if I could come listen in and he said it was ok.

    I went over and on the tail end of the discussion, he asked if we wanted to make statements about what happened. I asked if charges were being pressed, and he said "not at this time, would you llke to make a statement?" I started filling out the statement and TJ kept talking to the officers. I wrote a lengthy report and they were going off about this open carry stuff and made us feel like we were doing someting wrong. He even told us that the bank called the police, and officers had been patrolling the mall with RIFLES looking for us.

    I told the officer that I was confused because I carried an unloaded firearm into a business, was asked to leave, that I complied - and to the best of my knowledge broke no laws doing so. He said that my behavior was fine, but that TJ yadda yadda yadda.... arguing this code that TJ wasn't covered under law to carry openly.

    At one point, the officer asked if he could take pictures of us (mainly of TJ) for the record. He declined and they didn't push the issue after TJ made it clear that they had no reason to do so. The officers also stated that our case would go through an investigation to see if we would be hit with a disorderly conduct charge. TJ also brought up that he ran into a cop the other day who said nothing and that this new "policy" that the officer had, which look like it had been printed on the internet, was news to us as open carry citizens. Tj brought up the point that shouldn't he have made TJ aware of this "new statute"?

    The next line really pissed me off


    "If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!

    We immediately called Mitch and told him the situation and he just LAUGHED. He's going to write a letter to WVCPD soon along with other several top lawyers to tell them to stop harrasing the WVC citizens.

    One thing that really ticked me off was that they wrote the serial number of my firearm down even though I did "nothing wrong" on top of threatening that we broke the law and could be hit with disorderly conduct.

    Needless to say, not the best OC day. I'll let TJ interject anything I forgot and add his thoughts after this post.

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    They whipped out some sort of law code that they were claiming said that TJ couldn't open carry EVEN WITH A CONCEALED PERMIT.
    I'm really interested to see what law they cited.

    Sorry about your bad experience. I've been wondering if WVCPD had really decided they were okay with TJ's OCing, or if they were just annoyed because they hadn't yet found a way to stop him. Maybe they're going to give it another try.

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    Ya TJ wrote down the number, but apparently it deals more with what a "concealed weapon" is rather than how they wanted to use it which would have been "what you can do with a concealed weapons permit".


    On another note, they basically told us to stop open carrying because we are just bringing bad publicity to ourselves.... that we worry people, and that our actions could lead the Legislature to have their "hands tied" and take away these "freedoms" from us.

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    I highlighted and underlined what the Officer Smith was referring to.
    What was highlighted is the DEFINITION of what a CONCEALED WEAPON is and NOT what the definition of what CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT is due to the fact that thereis NONE.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    D. "Concealed" means that which is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Go figure...Brent was in TOTAL compliance with the law as NON-permit holder due to the fact that he was "Utah Loaded" according to the officers.
    But I was according to the Officer possibly in violation of the the CCW permit due to the fact that it was NOT concealed (A Weapons Offense:shock.
    And get a load of this. He said that NOT EVEN as a permit holder I was "authorized" to carry the gun loaded while OCing but only loaded when CCWing:shock:.
    I gave him 76-10-505 "unless OTHERWISE authorized BY LAW" talk and he STILL insited that I was in the wrong. .
    I forgot to give him 76-10-523
    On top of this..., they are going to look into if I can be charged with Disorderly conduct:what:.
    It appears to me that Brent will not be charged with anything.
    swillden, I believe you are correct in your comments



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    I wish I would have had this in mind at the time

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052300.htm

    UTAH STATE LEGISLATURE
    Home | Site Map | Calendar | Code/Constitution | House | Senate | Search
    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following:
    (a) a United States marshal;
    (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
    (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
    (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or
    (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
    (i) unloaded; and
    (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.

    Amended by Chapter 202, 2003 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 76_10_052300.ZIP 2,196 Bytes


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    THIS is what the Officer really got from r722-300

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050400.htm

    UTAH STATE LEGISLATURE
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    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
    (a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
    (b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (3) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) Nothing in Subsection (1) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.

    Amended by Chapter 2, 2005 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 76_10_050400.ZIP 2,473 Bytes


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    TJ

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    Thanks for calling me about this TJ. Let's try to get a copy of Mitch's letter. I would help buy stamps and envelopes to send this out to every PD in Utah. What is happening here is INEXCUSABLE. You should not feel like you cannot exercise rights just because a LEO doesn't understand your rights and wants to enforce their interpretation or lack of knowledge of the law on you. Keep up the good fight, you guys are troopers!

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    TJ, on his way out, told him he would be taking his business else where and that they should have posted a sign on the door about their policy (we realize that these signs don't have any legal justification until we are asked to leave, but it was just a suggestion).
    Why encourage a business to post? Everybody need to bite their toungue when this thougth arises in your head.:what:

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    A big ! I'm amazed that WVCPD still hassles TJ. He's not per-zackly the shy type, and I believe they've been acquainted with him prior to this. They should know by now he's not doing anything illegal.

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    Mike wrote:
    Why encourage a business to post? Everybody need to bite their toungue when this thougth arises in your head.:what:
    Why would you want to support a business that doesn't support your civil rights? Isn't that something you would want to know before entering the business? I would rather know and be able to avoid any confrontation from the get go, then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I turned around when I saw the sign at their entrance.

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    asforme wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Why encourage a business to post? Everybody need to bite their toungue when this thougth arises in your head.:what:
    Why would you want to support a business that doesn't support your civil rights? Isn't that something you would want to know before entering the business? I would rather know and be able to avoid any confrontation from the get go, then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I turned around when I saw the sign at their entrance.
    Agreed, whenever I question OCing at a locale, I look it up online, trying to see if they have restrictions, if so, I email them and take my business elsewhere. That way I don't waste my time or theirs. I would much rather know then have to be told.

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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    asforme wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Why encourage a business to post? Everybody need to bite their toungue when this thougth arises in your head.:what:
    Why would you want to support a business that doesn't support your civil rights? Isn't that something you would want to know before entering the business? I would rather know and be able to avoid any confrontation from the get go, then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I turned around when I saw the sign at their entrance.
    Agreed, whenever I question OCing at a locale, I look it up online, trying to see if they have restrictions, if so, I email them and take my business elsewhere. That way I don't waste my time or theirs. I would much rather know then have to be told.

    Can u look up Wells Fargo for us. Please?



    TJ


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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    GeneticsDave wrote:
    asforme wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Why encourage a business to post? Everybody need to bite their toungue when this thougth arises in your head.:what:
    Why would you want to support a business that doesn't support your civil rights? Isn't that something you would want to know before entering the business? I would rather know and be able to avoid any confrontation from the get go, then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I turned around when I saw the sign at their entrance.
    Agreed, whenever I question OCing at a locale, I look it up online, trying to see if they have restrictions, if so, I email them and take my business elsewhere. That way I don't waste my time or theirs. I would much rather know then have to be told.

    Can u look up Wells Fargo for us. Please?



    TJ
    Not finding any policy online regarding activity or items prohibited while at a branch. Every policy I can find has to do with privacy and security.

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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    GeneticsDave wrote:
    asforme wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Why encourage a business to post? Everybody need to bite their toungue when this thougth arises in your head.:what:
    Why would you want to support a business that doesn't support your civil rights? Isn't that something you would want to know before entering the business? I would rather know and be able to avoid any confrontation from the get go, then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I turned around when I saw the sign at their entrance.
    Agreed, whenever I question OCing at a locale, I look it up online, trying to see if they have restrictions, if so, I email them and take my business elsewhere. That way I don't waste my time or theirs. I would much rather know then have to be told.

    Can u look up Wells Fargo for us. Please?



    TJ
    Not finding any policy online regarding activity or items prohibited while at a branch. Every policy I can find has to do with privacy and security.

    That's whaat I thought. Now we just have to contact Wells Fargo.

    Thanks Dave



    TJ


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    And I thought Office Max was wrong! Holy cow! Okay, I hope Mitch's letter gets you guys a HUGE APOLOGY from WVCPD. Wow... that is all I can say...
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    Thanks for calling me about this TJ. Let's try to get a copy of Mitch's letter. I would help buy stamps and envelopes to send this out to every PD in Utah. What is happening here is INEXCUSABLE. You should not feel like you cannot exercise rights just because a LEO doesn't understand your rights and wants to enforce their interpretation or lack of knowledge of the law on you. Keep up the good fight, you guys are troopers!
    I'll pay for stamps and envelopes for all Utah County PDs if I get a copy of the letter, if he makes it general to all PDs.
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    UtahRSO wrote:
    A big ! I'm amazed that WVCPD still hassles TJ. He's not per-zackly the shy type, and I believe they've been acquainted with him prior to this. They should know by now he's not doing anything illegal.

    My bet is they do know TJ is doing nothing illegal, but somebody has his nose out of joint about TJ open carrying and are trying to make his life miserable.

    When I was a 17 year old boy I spent a summer with my married sister in a small town in Colorado.

    One night me and this other fool drove by the police chief's house and threw a silver salute in his front yard.

    He figured it was us, but he didn't catch us and couldn't prove it.

    Well after that night, anything bad happened in town and he came looking for us.

    One time he picked us up and took us to 3 or 4 different places where somethihg bad had happened and had people look at us to see if they recognized us as the ones who did it.

    In each case they said we weren't the ones.

    That was the last straw. My brother in law took us to the county seat and we talked to the county attorney and told him what was happening.

    He took care of it and my friend and I weren't bothered by that police chief the rest of the summer. (Of course we didn't throw any more fire crackers in his front yard either.)

    I think its time charges were brought against the WVPD for harassment.

    I would be talking to TJ's good buddy the State AG about this whole mess.


    Tarzan

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!
    Did you or TJ get that recorded?
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    +1000

    What the hell is this? Some sort of state wide blitz?

    TJ Give me a call.

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    Outsider wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!
    Did you or TJ get that recorded?
    I don't keep a tape recorder on me, but TJ might. I've heard LEOs say that before, but now it seems to hold dire consequences for us.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    +1000

    What the hell is this? Some sort of state wide blitz?

    TJ Give me a call.
    Letter from WCV Police Chief to all WVCPD Officers: "Two words: Get TJ!"
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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Outsider wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!
    Did you or TJ get that recorded?
    I don't keep a tape recorder on me, but TJ might. I've heard LEOs say that before, but now it seems to hold dire consequences for us.
    It would be a good thing to use against them. If you think about it they should be at a higher standard of knowing the law instead of normal citizens. When you hold a higher position (not saying a LEO is higher, but in the public eye they probably are) or a public officer (which a LEO is) you are held at a higher standard then your peers.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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  22. #22
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    No check out this thread

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/11414.html

    And later you'll hear about another near identical situation.

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    I admit that they can't know EVERY LAW.... But they like to argue that "firarms make people nervous":shock:

    So logically, you would think that they would LEARN FIREARMS LAWS

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    Outsider wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Outsider wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!
    It would be a good thing to use against them. If you think about it they should be at a higher standard of knowing the law instead of normal citizens.
    You could try. If you talk to LEOs about this, the response is quite consistent: any lack of knowledge on their part should be corrected with additional training while any lack of knowledge on your part should be corrected with criminal prosecution. This is true even of the pro-gun, pro-OC cops who frequent OCDO.

    I don't know, but strongly suspect that this attitude is maintained up through the ranks, and by the prosecutors as well. It's a more subtle form of the "Blue Wall", so subtle I don't think they even realize that they're applying a double standard. Unfortunately, the only way to correct this error is in civil court, via lawsuits. That sucks on any number of levels, including the fact that it takes an egregious violation of the citizen's rights before it's worth taking to court -- meaning minor offenses will never be corrected -- and that it's ultimately the taxpayers who pay the penalty, not the police.

    In theory, you should be able to press federal charges against police officers who abuse their authority in this way under the "color of law" statute. As posted on another thread on OCDO, though, 98% of complaints filed under this statute are declined for prosecution. That means the US Attorneys responsible for prosecuting decide it's not worth their time for whatever reason.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    No check out this thread

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/11414.html

    And later you'll hear about another near identical situation.
    Yeah, that is from UCC.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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