xRapidDavex
Regular Member
imported post
This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me. Also, from here on forward, member UTOC-45-44 will be referred to as "TJ".
I went to Doug's Shoot N' Sport today for my concealed permit class, which ended around 12:15 p.m. or so. I arranged for TJ to meet me down at Doug's when the class ended because he wanted some help doing a far strip down on his Kimber 1911.
The class ended, we met up, and TJ was kind enough to try and help me get my paperwork done. We didn't call BCI ahead of time to see if they were open, so we blindly headed out looking for a place to notarize my permit application. We decided to go to Wells Fargo over at the Valley Fair mall in West Valley City. I was openly carrying on my hip because I needed my firearm for the firing portion of our class.
We arrived at Wells Fargo, and I took my firearm off the dash and holstered it after we got out. I made sure it was in plain sight and we walked into the bank. For the first few moments, no one was available to help us. After about a minute, a female banker asked how she could help us. If she didn't see my firearm, she couldn't really miss TJ's shoulder rig which had a couple of extra mag holders, his SW 40, his handcuffs, and a Kimber 1911 on his hip.
She didn't seem threatened or surprised when she began talking to us and we told her we wanted some notary services. She said that the notary was out for the day and told us to try Albertsons down the street on 3500 South. TJ asked if she could call ahead and make sure the notary was there so we didn't waste any more time. She seemed happy to do so and went to her desk. We waited and waited while she called, and told us that she tried 3 branches and all the notaries were out.
We thanked her and began to wonder what to do. She started helping the next people in line when I wanted to find a phonebook. We didn't want to bug her, so we waited around another 15 seconds (in the bank about 4 minutes now) when a male employee came out from behind the bank tellers' area. I flagged him over and asked if he had a phone book.
He said no and that the mall didn't have one (weird), then immediately told us that firearms were not allowed on the premesis. I asked if that was Wells Fargo policy and he said yes. I said Ok and started to leave with TJ. TJ, on his way out, told him he would be taking his business else where and that they should have posted a sign on the door about their policy (we realize that these signs don't have any legal justification until we are asked to leave, but it was just a suggestion).
So, we left promptly, and TJ decided to try his credit union which was open over at Harmons grocery store on 3500 South. We went in there and got the paper notarized and went back to his place to clean his firearm.
GETTING TO THE JUICY PART!!
About an hour into cleaning his gun, a LEO pulls up in front of the house. TJ had called 4 hours earlier about a suspicious vehicle that was gone and they finally came to check it out. I'm not sure how the conversation began, because I was in the driveway for the first minute, but it came out that we were the "guys from the bank". :uhoh:
The officer calls it in and was joking with the man on the radio, claiming he located the "bandits" and laughing along with us. I was standing next to the window, firearm on my hip, next to TJ and everything was cool. We were telling him that we were there to get my paperwork notarized, and he just listened without getting antsy at all. He eventually got out after a few minutes of waiting, and asked for my ID. I handed it to him on top of my wallet to take and he took that as a signal that he could have my wallet. He opened it up and I promptly asked for it back. He asked if I had a permit and we reiterated to him that we were at the bank to get my paper notarized, so no, I didn't have a permit.
He decided it was time to check that I was carrying properly, and had me face away, fingers interlaced, while he disarmed me. Then another officer showed up to talk to the three of us. The first officer made it clear that I should stay by the front of the car while my firearm was on his trunk, slide back, mag out. Of course I complied, but TJ went around the car to talk to them. At some point a third officer showed up and the real discussions began.
They whipped out some sort of law code that they were claiming said that TJ couldn't open carry EVEN WITH A CONCEALED PERMIT. They think that being trusted by BCI and getting a permit somehow makes it illegal to carry openly with a loaded chamber. I was by the front of a running cop car still, so I couldn't make out exactly what they were saying. I eventually asked the officer if I could come listen in and he said it was ok.
I went over and on the tail end of the discussion, he asked if we wanted to make statements about what happened. I asked if charges were being pressed, and he said "not at this time, would you llke to make a statement?" I started filling out the statement and TJ kept talking to the officers. I wrote a lengthy report and they were going off about this open carry stuff and made us feel like we were doing someting wrong. He even told us that the bank called the police, and officers had been patrolling the mall with RIFLES looking for us.
I told the officer that I was confused because I carried an unloaded firearm into a business, was asked to leave, that I complied - and to the best of my knowledge broke no laws doing so. He said that my behavior was fine, but that TJ yadda yadda yadda.... arguing this code that TJ wasn't covered under law to carry openly.
At one point, the officer asked if he could take pictures of us (mainly of TJ) for the record. He declined and they didn't push the issue after TJ made it clear that they had no reason to do so. The officers also stated that our case would go through an investigation to see if we would be hit with a disorderly conduct charge. TJ also brought up that he ran into a cop the other day who said nothing and that this new "policy" that the officer had, which look like it had been printed on the internet, was news to us as open carry citizens. Tj brought up the point that shouldn't he have made TJ aware of this "new statute"?
The next line really pissed me off :cuss:
"If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!
We immediately called Mitch and told him the situation and he just LAUGHED. He's going to write a letter to WVCPD soon along with other several top lawyers to tell them to stop harrasing the WVC citizens.
One thing that really ticked me off was that they wrote the serial number of my firearm down even though I did "nothing wrong" on top of threatening that we broke the law and could be hit with disorderly conduct.
Needless to say, not the best OC day. I'll let TJ interject anything I forgot and add his thoughts after this post.
This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me. Also, from here on forward, member UTOC-45-44 will be referred to as "TJ".
I went to Doug's Shoot N' Sport today for my concealed permit class, which ended around 12:15 p.m. or so. I arranged for TJ to meet me down at Doug's when the class ended because he wanted some help doing a far strip down on his Kimber 1911.
The class ended, we met up, and TJ was kind enough to try and help me get my paperwork done. We didn't call BCI ahead of time to see if they were open, so we blindly headed out looking for a place to notarize my permit application. We decided to go to Wells Fargo over at the Valley Fair mall in West Valley City. I was openly carrying on my hip because I needed my firearm for the firing portion of our class.
We arrived at Wells Fargo, and I took my firearm off the dash and holstered it after we got out. I made sure it was in plain sight and we walked into the bank. For the first few moments, no one was available to help us. After about a minute, a female banker asked how she could help us. If she didn't see my firearm, she couldn't really miss TJ's shoulder rig which had a couple of extra mag holders, his SW 40, his handcuffs, and a Kimber 1911 on his hip.
She didn't seem threatened or surprised when she began talking to us and we told her we wanted some notary services. She said that the notary was out for the day and told us to try Albertsons down the street on 3500 South. TJ asked if she could call ahead and make sure the notary was there so we didn't waste any more time. She seemed happy to do so and went to her desk. We waited and waited while she called, and told us that she tried 3 branches and all the notaries were out.
We thanked her and began to wonder what to do. She started helping the next people in line when I wanted to find a phonebook. We didn't want to bug her, so we waited around another 15 seconds (in the bank about 4 minutes now) when a male employee came out from behind the bank tellers' area. I flagged him over and asked if he had a phone book.
He said no and that the mall didn't have one (weird), then immediately told us that firearms were not allowed on the premesis. I asked if that was Wells Fargo policy and he said yes. I said Ok and started to leave with TJ. TJ, on his way out, told him he would be taking his business else where and that they should have posted a sign on the door about their policy (we realize that these signs don't have any legal justification until we are asked to leave, but it was just a suggestion).
So, we left promptly, and TJ decided to try his credit union which was open over at Harmons grocery store on 3500 South. We went in there and got the paper notarized and went back to his place to clean his firearm.
GETTING TO THE JUICY PART!!
About an hour into cleaning his gun, a LEO pulls up in front of the house. TJ had called 4 hours earlier about a suspicious vehicle that was gone and they finally came to check it out. I'm not sure how the conversation began, because I was in the driveway for the first minute, but it came out that we were the "guys from the bank". :uhoh:
The officer calls it in and was joking with the man on the radio, claiming he located the "bandits" and laughing along with us. I was standing next to the window, firearm on my hip, next to TJ and everything was cool. We were telling him that we were there to get my paperwork notarized, and he just listened without getting antsy at all. He eventually got out after a few minutes of waiting, and asked for my ID. I handed it to him on top of my wallet to take and he took that as a signal that he could have my wallet. He opened it up and I promptly asked for it back. He asked if I had a permit and we reiterated to him that we were at the bank to get my paper notarized, so no, I didn't have a permit.
He decided it was time to check that I was carrying properly, and had me face away, fingers interlaced, while he disarmed me. Then another officer showed up to talk to the three of us. The first officer made it clear that I should stay by the front of the car while my firearm was on his trunk, slide back, mag out. Of course I complied, but TJ went around the car to talk to them. At some point a third officer showed up and the real discussions began.
They whipped out some sort of law code that they were claiming said that TJ couldn't open carry EVEN WITH A CONCEALED PERMIT. They think that being trusted by BCI and getting a permit somehow makes it illegal to carry openly with a loaded chamber. I was by the front of a running cop car still, so I couldn't make out exactly what they were saying. I eventually asked the officer if I could come listen in and he said it was ok.
I went over and on the tail end of the discussion, he asked if we wanted to make statements about what happened. I asked if charges were being pressed, and he said "not at this time, would you llke to make a statement?" I started filling out the statement and TJ kept talking to the officers. I wrote a lengthy report and they were going off about this open carry stuff and made us feel like we were doing someting wrong. He even told us that the bank called the police, and officers had been patrolling the mall with RIFLES looking for us.
I told the officer that I was confused because I carried an unloaded firearm into a business, was asked to leave, that I complied - and to the best of my knowledge broke no laws doing so. He said that my behavior was fine, but that TJ yadda yadda yadda.... arguing this code that TJ wasn't covered under law to carry openly.
At one point, the officer asked if he could take pictures of us (mainly of TJ) for the record. He declined and they didn't push the issue after TJ made it clear that they had no reason to do so. The officers also stated that our case would go through an investigation to see if we would be hit with a disorderly conduct charge. TJ also brought up that he ran into a cop the other day who said nothing and that this new "policy" that the officer had, which look like it had been printed on the internet, was news to us as open carry citizens. Tj brought up the point that shouldn't he have made TJ aware of this "new statute"?
The next line really pissed me off :cuss:
"If I don't know a law, I can't inforce it. But ignorance of the law on your part is no excuse." So basically these uninformed officers could shoot you because they are edgy, even though they don't know the law..... THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE IGNORANT, BUT WE DO NOT!
We immediately called Mitch and told him the situation and he just LAUGHED. He's going to write a letter to WVCPD soon along with other several top lawyers to tell them to stop harrasing the WVC citizens.
One thing that really ticked me off was that they wrote the serial number of my firearm down even though I did "nothing wrong" on top of threatening that we broke the law and could be hit with disorderly conduct.
Needless to say, not the best OC day. I'll let TJ interject anything I forgot and add his thoughts after this post.
. 
