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Thread: Cuffed, Detained & Disarmed outside Subway

  1. #1
    Regular Member badger's Avatar
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    I went up to Everett Saturday May 31st to help my crippled uncle clean his yard and take some loads to the dump. After finishing at the dump...

    At approximately 1400 on May 31, 2008, I went to Subway on 4th Ave & 128th St in Everett, Washington, to have lunch with my aunt and uncle. Shortly after arriving, while reading the menu and talking with my uncle, Sheriff’s Deputy #1 approached and surprised me from behind and put my right hand into a painful wristlock and ordered me to join him outside. Once outside, #1 told me to stand against the wall where he secured both my hands behind my back. I asked what I was being detained for and #1 told me for carrying my pistol on my hip. At this time my pistol was securely holstered and its retention strap was fastened. My holster was attached to my belt and located on my right hip. #1 then handcuffed me and told me that I was being detained until this was figured out and asked if I had a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). I said yes and told him my CPL and driver’s license were in my wallet located in the right rear pocket of my pants. Deputy #2 removed my wallet from my pocket and removed my CPL and drivers license while Deputy #1 disarmed me of my pistol from its fastened holster and the spare magazine from its carrier on my opposite hip. At this time Deputy #3 showed up. I asked what the problem was and #1 told me that I wasn’t allowed to carry my pistol in plain view and that I needed to conceal it to legally carry it. I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and had no jacket with me at the time. I asked them to remove the handcuffs. They refused. They called in my driver’s license, CPL and the serial number of my pistol. I willingly gave Deputy #2 my current address, phone number and social security number. Deputy #1 told me that I was going to keep my pistol concealed, and that “Washington State might be an ‘open-carry’ State but it’s not like you’re walking around on the streets of Gold Bar”. #1 told me to secure my pistol in my uncle’s truck and I informed him that I had no way to legally secure my pistol in the truck. #2 then told me to borrow my uncle’s coat to conceal my pistol. I asked when the handcuffs were going to be removed from my wrists. Finally I was un-handcuffed and Deputy #1 returned my pistol to me. I held it, barrel down, out by its grip pinched between my index finger and thumb as Deputy #1 did not clear the pistol in front of me and I didn’t know whether or not it was loaded. #1 told me to holster my pistol, which I did slowly. Then #1 returned my loaded magazines to me one at a time. I holstered one magazine into its carrier on my left hip and put the spare in my front left pants pocket. Then #1 returned the single round I had had chambered in my pistol. I put this single bullet in my right front pants pocket. I then requested cards from all three deputies present. They all gave me their cards. I stopped talking and left with my uncle.



    During the entire encounter I had my hands cuffed behind me and faced the wall. I was polite and used "sir" & "ma'am" while addressing the deputies.

    I need your advice and help figuring out exactly what [legally speaking] happened to me and how I should go about filing a complaint with the Sheriff's Department and maybe more. This whole situation has pissed me off big time.

    -Badger
    1911 before dialing 911.

  2. #2
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    Wow! :shock:

    What "legally" happened to you was a very, very illegal arrest and detainment. Filing a complaint immediately is definitely appropriate.

    This is definitely one of the worst incidents we've had - I think we need to start talking immediately about what is to be done to educate law enforcement in Everett and Snohomish county. Hopefully Lonnie will be able to give some good advice, but in the meantime I think we might want to consider finding a time some of us can meet to talk about this. Obviously, the situation in Everett is worse than we thought, and depending on what legal remedies will be pursued, it might not be wise to discuss everything in the open.

    I know that when I was detained by the SPD last year, some board members advised me to delete my account of exactly what happened until the matter was resolved, to prevent the department from getting ready to preemptively stonewall any complaints. I don't know much that really matters, but it's something to think about.

    Anyway, I hope you're feeling alright now. Let's get on the ball on this one!

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Paging Aaron 47.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Most stores have camera footage.

    Get an injunction to prevent them from erasing it, as well as a court order to get the tapes.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

  5. #5
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    PM Sent. Time to lawyer up.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Holy crap, is that even real? Seriously, you can not ignore this. Do not ignore this. Get a lawyer and start going through the motions. I've never heard of anything going to that extreme.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    Wow. Just wow. I'm so sorry. Nobody should have to endure this from THEIR PUBLIC SERVANTS.

  8. #8
    Regular Member badger's Avatar
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    It sure as hell is real! Thanks for the PM sv_libertarian.

    Deputy #1 was definately pushing my buttons and I could tell he wanted me to lose my temper so he could try to legitimize his forceful actions. It still boggles me that he went straight to physical violent restraint without having said a single word to me. If his problem was that I had an un-concealed pistol, why didn't he just ask me to cover up? He was getting physical with me before I even knew there was a situation.

    And to top it off, I never got my roastbeef sub!
    1911 before dialing 911.

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    A culinary tragedy as well! :shock:

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    This is very disappointing to hear. For the second time in as many weeks a Sherriff’s deputy has used these heavy handed tactics. I was under the impression the Sherriff’s Department was more knowledgeable and more professional than the local police departments. You handled the situation well and I really think you should pursue action against the deputy. If he didn’t announce himself before he grabbed your wrist the situation could have been deadly!

    I hope you were able to record the transaction, as his version of the encounter will change when he writes up an explanation for his superiors. (This is what Olsen did after his sergeant compelled him to write up a statement about our encounter.) Either way, you should definitely file a complaint. You were assaulted, intimidated under the color of law, and illegally seized. I cannot offer any real legal advice but I would be happy to proofread your letters if you would like.

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    I'm assuming your aunt and uncle are witnesses? I hope so. I've saved your write up for my own personal reference in case you and the atty decide it's best to delete the post for the time being.







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    badger wrote:
    I went up to Everett Saturday May 31st to help my crippled uncle clean his yard and take some loads to the dump. After finishing at the dump...

    At approximately 1400 on May 31, 2008, I went to Subway on 4th Ave & 128th St in Everett, Washington, to have lunch with my aunt and uncle. Shortly after arriving, while reading the menu and talking with my uncle, Sheriff’s Deputy Jim Hager [Badge #1469] approached and surprised me from behind and put my right hand into a painful wristlock and ordered me to join him outside. Once outside, Hager told me to stand against the wall where he secured both my hands behind my back. I asked what I was being detained for and Hager told me for carrying my pistol on my hip. At this time my pistol was securely holstered and its retention strap was fastened. My holster was attached to my belt and located on my right hip. Hager then handcuffed me and told me that I was being detained until this was figured out and asked if I had a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). I said yes and told him my CPL and driver’s license were in my wallet located in the right rear pocket of my pants. Deputy R Robertson [Badge #1472] removed my wallet from my pocket and removed my CPL and drivers license while Deputy Hager disarmed me of my pistol from its fastened holster and the spare magazine from its carrier on my opposite hip. At this time Deputy Heather Joyce [Badge #1436] showed up. I asked what the problem was and Hager told me that I wasn’t allowed to carry my pistol in plain view and that I needed to conceal it to legally carry it. I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and had no jacket with me at the time. I asked them to remove the handcuffs. They refused. They called in my driver’s license, CPL and the serial number of my pistol. I willingly gave Deputy Robertson my current address, phone number and social security number. Hager told me that I was going to keep my pistol concealed, and that “Washington State might be an ‘open-carry’ State but it’s not like you’re walking around on the streets of Gold Bar”. Hager told me to secure my pistol in my uncle’s truck and I informed him that I had no way to legally secure my pistol in the truck. Robertson then told me to borrow my uncle’s coat to conceal my pistol. I asked when the handcuffs were going to be removed from my wrists. Finally I was un-handcuffed and Deputy Hager returned my pistol to me. I held it, barrel down, out by its grip pinched between my index finger and thumb as Deputy Hager did not clear the pistol in front of me and I didn’t know whether or not it was loaded. Hager told me to holster my pistol, which I did slowly. Then Hager returned my loaded magazines to me one at a time. I holstered one magazine into its carrier on my left hip and put the spare in my front left pants pocket. Then Hager returned the single round I had had chambered in my pistol. I put this single bullet in my right front pants pocket. I then requested cards from all three deputies present. They all gave me their cards. I stopped talking and left with my uncle.



    During the entire encounter I had my hands cuffed behind me and faced the wall. I was polite and used "sir" & "ma'am" while addressing the deputies.

    I need your advice and help figuring out exactly what [legally speaking] happened to me and how I should go about filing a complaint with the Sheriff's Department and maybe more. This whole situation has pissed me off big time.

    -Badger
    Here is another story from yesterday that happened to a friend and I here in Utah.

    Terrible OC Experience

    TJ

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    badger wrote:
    I went up to Everett Saturday May 31st to help my crippled uncle clean his yard and take some loads to the dump. After finishing at the dump...

    At approximately 1400 on May 31, 2008, I went to Subway on 4th Ave & 128th St in Everett, Washington, to have lunch with my aunt and uncle. Shortly after arriving, while reading the menu and talking with my uncle, Sheriff’s Deputy Jim Hager [Badge #1469] approached and surprised me from behind and put my right hand into a painful wristlock and ordered me to join him outside. Once outside, Hager told me to stand against the wall where he secured both my hands behind my back. I asked what I was being detained for and Hager told me for carrying my pistol on my hip. At this time my pistol was securely holstered and its retention strap was fastened. My holster was attached to my belt and located on my right hip. Hager then handcuffed me and told me that I was being detained until this was figured out and asked if I had a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). I said yes and told him my CPL and driver’s license were in my wallet located in the right rear pocket of my pants. Deputy R Robertson [Badge #1472] removed my wallet from my pocket and removed my CPL and drivers license while Deputy Hager disarmed me of my pistol from its fastened holster and the spare magazine from its carrier on my opposite hip. At this time Deputy Heather Joyce [Badge #1436] showed up. I asked what the problem was and Hager told me that I wasn’t allowed to carry my pistol in plain view and that I needed to conceal it to legally carry it. I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and had no jacket with me at the time. I asked them to remove the handcuffs. They refused. They called in my driver’s license, CPL and the serial number of my pistol. I willingly gave Deputy Robertson my current address, phone number and social security number. Hager told me that I was going to keep my pistol concealed, and that “Washington State might be an ‘open-carry’ State but it’s not like you’re walking around on the streets of Gold Bar”. Hager told me to secure my pistol in my uncle’s truck and I informed him that I had no way to legally secure my pistol in the truck. Robertson then told me to borrow my uncle’s coat to conceal my pistol. I asked when the handcuffs were going to be removed from my wrists. Finally I was un-handcuffed and Deputy Hager returned my pistol to me. I held it, barrel down, out by its grip pinched between my index finger and thumb as Deputy Hager did not clear the pistol in front of me and I didn’t know whether or not it was loaded. Hager told me to holster my pistol, which I did slowly. Then Hager returned my loaded magazines to me one at a time. I holstered one magazine into its carrier on my left hip and put the spare in my front left pants pocket. Then Hager returned the single round I had had chambered in my pistol. I put this single bullet in my right front pants pocket. I then requested cards from all three deputies present. They all gave me their cards. I stopped talking and left with my uncle.



    During the entire encounter I had my hands cuffed behind me and faced the wall. I was polite and used "sir" & "ma'am" while addressing the deputies.

    I need your advice and help figuring out exactly what [legally speaking] happened to me and how I should go about filing a complaint with the Sheriff's Department and maybe more. This whole situation has pissed me off big time.

    -Badger

    So WITHOUT notifying you he just came up and wristlocked you

    ASSAULT, ASSAULT, ASSAULT

    What'sup with all this going on lately...



    It's happening EVERYWHERE



    Sorry my friend

    TJ


  14. #14
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    Did the store call them?

  15. #15
    Regular Member badger's Avatar
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    deanf wrote:
    Did the store call them?
    No, Deputy Robertson was infront of us in line. We hadn't been in the place a minute before Hager grabbed me.
    1911 before dialing 911.

  16. #16
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    So the law enFORCEment officer never said a word before he made contact (physical) or id himself, and you had no idea who it was that was touching you ?

    If that is the way it went down all i can say is ouch!!

    I am glad it did not turn out worse for the police officer.

    Do you have the Castle Doc in Washington ?

    I agree time for a lawyer, a copy of the cameras, get your relatives to the lawyers office, names of the workers that were working that night etc....

    Min. a case of assault, false detainment, kidnapping by removing from your original area ?, Sounds not only civil but also criminal also

    BUT i am NOT a lawyer:what:

    But police can do NO wrong



  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    If any of this happed INSIDE the store, check to see if Subway has audio recordings. Some subways post that in addition to video recordings that they also make audio recordings at the Cash Register

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    badger, PM me your cellphone number please.

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    Lonnie, OP,etc...

    SECURE THE EVIDENCE! if only for a complaint.

    Have an attorney contact the store and secure the video of the incident ASAP.



  20. #20
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    This is getting ridiculous!!

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Based on information recently published in conjunction with an ongoing issue with Everett School District, I doubt that there are any Audio recordings available. Washington still holds it to be illegal to record another person without their permission and/or being advised in advance. "Flora" covers recording Police, not customers of a retail establishment.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    amlevin wrote:
    Based on information recently published in conjunction with an ongoing issue with Everett School District, I doubt that there are any Audio recordings available. Washington still holds it to be illegal to record another person without their permission and/or being advised in advance. "Flora" covers recording Police, not customers of a retail establishment.
    If the business establishment has a sign stating audio recording is/may be in progress, than the 2cd party has been informed and it is legal?

  23. #23
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    David.Car wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    Based on information recently published in conjunction with an ongoing issue with Everett School District, I doubt that there are any Audio recordings available. Washington still holds it to be illegal to record another person without their permission and/or being advised in advance. "Flora" covers recording Police, not customers of a retail establishment.
    If the business establishment has a sign stating audio recording is/may be in progress, than the 2cd party has been informed and it is legal?
    According to 9.73.030 section 3 if consent if the communication is recorded then so shall the notice of recording.

    Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    joeroket wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    Based on information recently published in conjunction with an ongoing issue with Everett School District, I doubt that there are any Audio recordings available.* Washington still holds it to be illegal to record another person without their permission and/or being advised in advance.* "Flora" covers recording Police, not customers of a retail establishment.
    If the business establishment has a sign stating audio recording is/may be in progress, than the 2cd party has been informed and it is legal?
    According to 9.73.030 section 3 if consent if the communication is recorded then so shall the notice of recording.

    Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.
    Its called implied consent. I've told you that you're being recorded, if you don't want your voice on my 'tape', then ****.:celebrate
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    Based on information recently published in conjunction with an ongoing issue with Everett School District, I doubt that there are any Audio recordings available. Washington still holds it to be illegal to record another person without their permission and/or being advised in advance. "Flora" covers recording Police, not customers of a retail establishment.
    If the business establishment has a sign stating audio recording is/may be in progress, than the 2cd party has been informed and it is legal?
    According to 9.73.030 section 3 if consent if the communication is recorded then so shall the notice of recording.

    Where consent by all parties is needed pursuant to this chapter, consent shall be considered obtained whenever one party has announced to all other parties engaged in the communication or conversation, in any reasonably effective manner, that such communication or conversation is about to be recorded or transmitted: PROVIDED, That if the conversation is to be recorded that said announcement shall also be recorded.
    Its called implied consent. I've told you that you're being recorded, if you don't want your voice on my 'tape', then ****.:celebrate
    I agree and know what implied consent means but how is Subway going to record thier announcement that you are being recorded. That was my point of the post. Or am I reading the RCW wrong?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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