Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: rules

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    4

    Post imported post

    im new to this forum.so i need some help.im 17 years old and i carry a ball and cap black powder pistol.do i need any permits 2 carry it or is it concidered antique furniture.the gun is fairly new i buoght from a gun show and they said i didnt need any liscense 2 buy or carry.any help please.note:i keep it in my car/truck not on my body.

  2. #2
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    While I'm not as familiar with the laws specifically regarding black powder firearms, I am almost positive that they are still considered firearms, and are therefore illegal for a minor to be in possession of under normal circumstances. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, here.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    806

    Post imported post

    From what I've read a firearm must be manufactured before 1898 for it to be an antique. Not just designed before 1898, but if I recall correctly either the stock or receiver, I can't remember which it is, (And I guess the frame if it's a handgun?) of the specific gun in your posession has to actually have been manufactured before that time and somehow identified via markings as such.

    Of course, it seems to me that it is still considered a firearm. Thus even if you could legally purchase it below age 18 and without a permit or background check, I still don't think you can legally carry it at this time. I also don't know that you can legally purchase it below 18. I think the only real difference with an antique is just that for anyone 18 or over, they don't need a background check in a store or an FFL to do the transfer when ordering one online. It can just come straight to their house.

    I think you should consider purchasing a mixture of CS tear gas and OC pepper spray (Sabre makes them), and a quality pocket knife. The pocket 3/4oz unit has a capacity of about 30 one second bursts (Stream type) and a range of 8 to 10 feet. I suggest this regardless of whether or not you're able to carry the firearm because having a single shot muzzle loader could present a major problem. If you miss with that gun, you're then going to be dealing with a lethal force encounter unarmed. If you have multiple attackers, even if you score a direct hit on one of them you may still have a problem. I do not recommend carrying such a weapon for defense, ever. If they have a gun, you're probably going to loose. If you blind them through immense tear production in their eyes initially, they will have a much harder time shooting you. This will allow an easier escape on your part.

    I do hear people say, "that wont stop somebody on x, y or z drug." Unfortunately these folks have probably never done x, y or z drug and have no clue what they're talking about, or they're selling a taser and want you to buy their product. I also fail to see how the tear production would be negated by drug use. They will cry regardless. It may not hurt as badly if they were on some kind of pain killer (And meth is NOT one), but it will still cause them to tear up and have trouble seeing as well.

    A taser, while it can be a good defensive tool, will only incapacitate during the application of current. If they're truly determined, after you stop "tasing" they may still come at you. The spray will not stop having its effect when you let go of the "trigger." Not to say a taser is a bad idea or ineffective, but I do think people give it a bit too much credit compared to a good spray. There's a reason why police sometimes "tase" people repeatedly. You also have to apply it to one target until they stop. With the spray you can hit one target and move on to the next without having to continue to go back and spray the first one.

    None of these items offer a guaranteed result, but personally I think that what you're doing with the muzzle loader may be a very bad idea. Below are two items you might want to consider acquiring (Or something similar).


    Sabre 3-in-1 3/4oz Pocket Spray (Can't beat it for $8!!):

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=664996


    Ka-Bar Dozier Folding Hunter ($19 knife, very high quality, light weight and good design. For the money it's hard to beat.):

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...amp;t=11082005


    Welcome to the forums btw.



    Edit: It was 1898, not 1895, and it includes replicas.

    Still, I wouldn't recommend carrying these types of weapons for defense purposes, even if it were legal.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    According to North Carolina Firearms Laws published by the state Attorney General's office:


    "An "antique firearm" is one that was



    manufactured on or before 1898 and includes any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,



    percussion cap, or similar ignition system, or a replica thereof if the replica is not designed



    or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. It also includes



    any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is



    designed to use black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. N.C.



    Gen. Stat. § 14-409(a) The term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which



    incorporates a firearm frame or receiver; is converted into a muzzle loading weapon; or is



    a muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by



    replacing the barrel, bolt, breechlock, or any combination thereof. A "historic-edged



    weapon" is defined to be a bayonet, trench knife, sword, or dagger manufactured during or

    prior to World War II, but no later than January 1, 1946. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-409.12"



    This quote appears in the section "North Carolina Requirements" which states that antique firearms, as defined, are exemnpt from the transfer permit requirement.

    I could find no reference to antique firearms regarding carrying. It does say that minors are prohibited from carrying handguns as described in NCGS 14-269.7 which is to say

    "A firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be fired by the use of a single hand, or any combination of parts from which such a firearm can be assembled."

    This definition technically includes antique pistols.

    A minor may carry one for instructional purposes in the presence of a supervising adult and while hunting outsidean incorporated city limit with the written permission of a parent or legal guardian.

    To be safe, you should probably carry only under those two conditions.

    Cheers,

    John A.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    4

    Post imported post

    thanks 4 the help.2 the fellow speaking of the one shot black powder.the gun is a 6 shot revolver with a removable cylinder of which i keep 2 in the vehicle.thanks again.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    806

    Post imported post

    Well that should be a bit better than one shot, I mistakenly thought you meant a single shot pistol.

    I hope you're careful about where you're taking them though. If you're keeping them in your car it does sound like you've got to be breaking the law if the you drive the car off your property. We should probably leave it at that though, simply because I don't suggest mentioning illegal activities on here.

    Note that I'm not saying it's illegal to have them in a car, especially if it's on your property. I'll assume everything you're doing is legal as you haven't stated the guns go with you anywhere that would make it illegal. I just mean I don't recommend saying anything incriminating on here if they actually do go out with you illegally.


    As far as I know, open carry is open carry. NC law, if I'm not mistaken, requires you to be 18 to open carry. Also note that even if it's legal you can probably expect to be hassled by police if you're pulled over at age 17 with two pistols in your car. Not many officers will have dealt with such a situation, at least not with someone doing it legally, I'm sure.

    As such the officer may not know about all of the laws involved, if there are such laws that would allow you to do that. I also highly doubt it's legal to carry them concealed without a permit. So when you are in or out of the car while the car is off your property, if you are setting them under a seat or something, from my understanding that could be considered to be concealed as well. If you do find proof of a law that allows you to do this, memorize it (Or the overall provisions of it at least) and keep it with you, then if you are taken in by police at least they will have something to look up if they believe you.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    When you buy a black powder pistol it does {not} seem to be registered as a firearm, or a pistol at least. You walk in the store and give them the money and walk out. There is no ID check or anything. Most places require you to be 18 to buy bullets and 21 to buy black powder. Has anyone had an encounter with law enforcement while carrying these.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    NC general statute says:
    § 14‑409.11. "Antique firearm" defined.

    (a) The term "antique firearm" means any of the following:

    (1) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898.

    (2) Any replica of any firearm described in subdivision (1) of this subsection if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

    (3) Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.

    (b) For purposes of this section, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which:

    (1) Incorporates a firearm frame or receiver.

    (2) Is converted into a muzzle loading weapon.

    (3) Is a muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. (1969, c. 101, s. 2; 2006‑259, s. 7(a).

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    4

    Post imported post

    thanks londo thats the truth not some bs some guy pulls out of his ass.thats the actual document.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    806

    Post imported post

    Has anyone had an encounter with law enforcement while carrying these.
    That's what I'm wondering myself. If he's 17, he can't get it first of all and secondly he will definitely have a problem dealing with LEO's on the matter.



    thanks londo thats the truth not some bs some guy pulls out of his ass.thats the actual document.
    I'm not sure who you're referring to, but if that's me I made it pretty clear that I was not certain about what I was telling you. I simply told you that I thought it to be the case. You also stated that you were 17 at the time and I will pretty much guarantee you that if you're pulled over by an LEO and you have a gun with you it is going to be an issue if you're only 17.

    Whether that means they will arrest you, I don't know, but I simply doubt it's going to be, "here's your ticket, have a nice day." People who are 21+ have problems with LEO's concerning open carry. So with the obscurity of that law and the fact that very few 17 year olds probably test the waters, you will likely have troubles if you encounter an LEO before you turn 18. You may be the first person that the LEO has ever encountered under 18 who is legally carrying an antique pistol, thus he may have no clue about the fact that it's legal (If in fact it is legal for you to OC that pistol). If it isn't considered a pistol, I don't know what the laws concerning Open Carry of it would be. You really want to find this out for certain before you carry it. Nobody is pulling that out of their ass. If you're already 18, good for you, but keep the smart ass stuff to yourself. All we're (Or at least all I'm) trying to do on here is help.

    Again, like I said before, I would find the actual law and print it out and take it with you if you plan on carrying them or at least have it committed to memory to a good degree. What he posted is a post, not the actual document. It also said nothing concerning OC, it just said what defines an antique and the age at which you may purchase it. From my understanding you need to be 18 to OC in NC, but if this is not defined as a firearm it may be different (Again though, if the police don't know that, expect to deal with harassment). You'll want to find the real version of that document and print it and it wouldn't be a bad idea to find out what the laws concerning carrying those are. If you have those laws with you, at least an officer could check if they wanted to (They may not care though to be honest, some of them don't like you to question their knowledge/"authority").

    But since you seem to be the know it all type, I will leave it at that.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    Im not trying to argue anything since nobody has been in this situation. I do have a copy of the law in my vehicles at all times. Saying if the replica was to be concealed or carried openly i still don't even think it even applies as a weapon. I was told this by a local store that sells handguns. Now i dont know about it being loaded. If it is loaded they might try to say it is a weapon but who would carry an unloaded pistol.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    806

    Post imported post

    First of all, note that I was not speaking to you, I quoted the other person in this thread when I made the statements in the second half of my last post.

    Now, if it's not considered a handgun as you stated before, then I don't know that you can conceal it. I mean, you can't conceal certain types of knives technically. It will probably be categorized as some kind of weapon, it's a loaded firearm that fires projectiles. What kind of weapon I am not certain, but an officer will almost certainly consider it one and probably won't be excited about a 17 year old carrying it around loaded in most cases. The CC permit only allows you to conceal handguns. If this thing isn't even classified as a handgun as you said, the permit may not cover it then. I think it would be prudent to actually speak with someone who can tell you exactly what the legal definition of that pistol is in terms of if and how it's categorized as a weapon.

    Again, you're right about the fact that nobody in this thread has been in the situation. Hence the reason I am telling you that it will probably be more of an ordeal than "here's your ticket, have a nice day." The person pulling you over probably wont have dealt with it either and therein is where the problem lies.

    If you have a copy of the laws but you don't know what the pistol is actually defined as legally, then you don't have a copy of the laws that you need to have IMO. You're saying you aren't even sure if it's considered a handgun or not. I think the officer is going to consider it a handgun until you can prove otherwise, but that's just me. If someone is 17 and driving around with a loaded pistol, I am saying that they can expect to have problems if they're pulled over and the pistol is discovered.

    I'll say it once more: People who are totally legal and have CC permits and are over 21 still have nasty encounters with uninformed LEOs concerning carrying handguns. So I'm just being honest when I say you can expect for this to happen. It's not a big deal to me if you carry, but it's almost like you're saying that because I haven't been pulled over at age 17 with a loaded pistol that there's no point in even worrying about it and that somehow it will all work out and nothing will happen. It may and it may not, whether or not it's legal.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    I agree. I have been pulled over once but it was because the road was under construction. Before he stopped me I layed it on the seat beside me but he never checked my ID or asked anything.
    Like you said they would probably try to make a big deal about it. The only thing NC says about antique pistols is that section i posted. It doesnt say you cant carry it and it doesnt say you can. I asked a deputy sherriff today about black powder pistols in a gun shop. He said i could buy one and carry it completely legally. There are absolutely no laws on them.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    Today i got pulled over with two .22 pistols locked in a container unloaded and the officers didnt have a problem with it even though im only 17. I asked them when i turn 18 if i could carry it openly and they said yes

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cary, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    26

    Post imported post



    Glad you were pulled over by a reasonable officer. Do understand, however, that you were in violation of NC firearms law by having the pistols in your possession. If you had been in Chapel Hill or some other such place you might not have been so lucky. Here is the relevant statute:


    North Carolina General Statute § 14-269.7 provides that it is a misdemeanor for any person under the age of 18 to possess or carry a handgun. A handgun is defined as a
    firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be fired by the use of a single hand, or any combination of parts from which such a firearm can be assembled. This prohibition does not apply to the following:

    A. officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties, or acting under orders requiring them to carry handguns;

    B. a minor who possesses a handgun for educational or recreational purposes while the minor is supervised by an adult who is present;

    C. an emancipated minor who possesses such a handgun inside his or her residence; and

    D. a minor who possesses a handgun while hunting or trapping outside the limits of an incorporated municipality if he/she has on his or her person, written permission from a parent, guardian, or other person standing in loco parentis.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Greensboro, ,
    Posts
    235

    Post imported post

    Of course, the beautiful irony on North Carolina law, is that while it is illegal to "for any person under the age of 18 to possess or carry a handgun."

    It is illegal for anyone to give,sell or transfer any handgun to anyone under the age of 21, (due to NC law requiring a pistol purchase permit (or CHP) for anyone receiving a handgun (even as a gift or inheritance).

    Gotta love those conflicting laws.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    806

    Post imported post

    Basically my understanding of it is that you can "borrow" a handgun at age 18, but it can't be yours. Personally, I wouldn't mess with it, but these two 17 year old kids seem like they're not really too concerned about the legality of their actions. The thread creator was particularly unhappy with any response that went against his desired response.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Alabama, ,
    Posts
    1,338

    Post imported post

    Maybe they are banking on the juvy status so the record is expunged in a few months anyways.
    Wanna bet this would be the first SCOTUS decision to declare newborn and above
    held to adult standards for carrying.

    It is nice that they recognize emancipated individuals though. That seems to be the
    best angle for this. You don't give up much being an independant adult. Unless
    the parents want the tax ripoff.


  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    Well i didnt think minors could possess a handgun either but I got a paper with exceptions to the NC hangun laws. It says a minor can transport a handgun with permission of a parent for target practice purposes.It has to be in a locked container though. This comes from Gun Control act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44. I am not trying to break or push the law. I just enjoy firearms.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cary, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    26

    Post imported post



    You are correct and if you see item "D" above, it states that you can have it in your possession if you have written permission with you from a parent or guardian. The key on all this is how far an officer wants to push the issue and that depends on the officer and the part of the state in which you are stopped.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    Thank you someone finally agrees with me on the issue. By the way has anyone found out anything else about the legality of black powder pistols? So far im just relying on what the police told me and that was that there is no law against them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •