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Template to put Chiefs of Police or Sheriffs in Washington on notice about the law of open carry

Mike

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Ajetpilot wrote:
kparker wrote:
Ajetpilot,

I'm pretty sure he's referencing the incident described here.

Thank you. I was thinking of the Everett incident while I was reading this thread. We are starting to get many incidents of this type now for some reason. Perhaps because we are moving into summer months, and lighter clothing makes OC more noticeable; or perhaps because our movement is growing! :celebrate

I emailed the Everett PD Chief and Sohomish County Sheriff last night, referencing respective threads - no word back from them yet.

Hmm, maybe if WA state has a state FOIA law, you residents out there in Everett and Snohomish could FOIA these two leaders of your community for a copy of what I emailed them :cool:
 

Trigger Dr

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Mike,

The only thing I did was to remove the parts that address the letter to a specific person, and that made it an INFORMATION handout, addressing the points of law in Washington.



Non-consensual police stops of open carriers for simply open carrying is per se unlawful.

It is not unlawful to openly carry handguns in Washington, and that like most states, no license is required to open carry on foot, and local ordinances to the contrary are unlawful as a matter of state preemption law. RCW 9.41.290. The United States Supreme Court has established that it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment for the police to seize a person absent reasonable articulable suspicion ("RAS") of crime afoot. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Accordingly, the Washington Court of Appeals has recently affirmed a trial court's holding that Washington law "does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere [open] carrying of a firearm in public." State v. Casad, 139 Wash.App. 1032 (Wash. App.Div.2 2007) (suppressing evidence of unlawful possession of firearms because stop of Defendant was not grounded in reasonable articulable suspicion of any crime).

Further, even during a valid Terry stop, the United States Supreme Court forbids police to even conduct a light pat down or seize weapons unless subsequent to RAS for the stop, the "an officer is justified in believing that the individual whose suspicious behavior he is investigating at close range is [both] armed and presently dangerous to the officer or to others." 392 U.S. at 24. Stated another way, only "o long as the officer is [both] entitled to make a forcible stop, and has reason to believe that the suspect is armed **and dangerous** . . .may [he] conduct a weapons search limited in scope to this protective purpose." Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 146 (1972) (emphasis added). So even if there were there to come a time that a Washington law enforcement officer properly seizes a person pursuant to RAS for brief investigatory purposes, the officer is not entitled to seize an openly carry weapon absent "reason to believe that the suspect is . . . [also presently] dangerous." Id. Should an open carrier stopped validly under Terry consensually produce a Concealed Pistol License, this fact weighs heavily against any officer's claim that the suspect is "presently dangerous" such that the gun maybe lawfully seized and serial numbers obtained. Accordingly, suppression of any evidence obtained in seizing the gun is likely under these circumstances.

Nonconsensual stops of open carriers to demand identification or check gun serial numbers are unlawful in Washington.

A mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for a Terry stop. Florida v. J. L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000). Americans cannot be required to carry and produce identification credentials on demand to the police. Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). Washington does not have a "stop and ID" statute. However, even where a state enacts a "stop and ID" statute, stop must be limited to situations where RAS exists of a crime, and further, stop subject's statement of his name satisfies the ID requirement as Kolender, discussed supra, has not been overruled. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004). Even where a state has established a duty to carry a license for some activity, absent RAS for the stop, the license cannot be demanded. State v. Peters, 2008 WL 2185754 (Wis. App. I Dist. 2008) (driver of vehicle has no duty to produce driver's license absent RAS) (citing Hiibel). Law enforcement officers seizing persons for refusal to show identification are "not entitled to dismissal of . . . [42 USC 1983 claims] based on qualified immunity." Stufflebeam v. Harris, 521 F.3d 884, 889 (8th Cir. 2008).

Editorializing against open carry is not the province of law enforcement.

If officers have any objection to open carry, they should contact their state legislator on their off duty time and not use the color of authority behind their badges and uniforms to stifle both the right to bear arms and the First Amendment right of expressive conduct to open carry firearms.

Unlawful stops of open carriers will result in suppression of evidence even if unlawful conduct is uncovered, allowing criminals to get off the hook.

In Casad, discussed supra, the Appeals court suppressed evidence of the unlawful possession of firearms because law enforcement seized a man for merely openly carrying firearms in public. This result is not unusual, see Goodman v. Commonwealth, 2007 WL 2988343 (Va.App. 2007) (same result as Casad), because the result is as a matter of federal Constitutional law commanded by the United States Supreme Court. As discussed supra, see Florida v. J. L.; Hicks.

No qualified immunity available for law enforcement officials regarding open carrier harassment in Washington.

As it is clearly established law that the open carry of handguns in holsters is lawful without a CPL, qualified immunity does not attach to law enforcement officers for the unlawful harassment, ID checks, see Stufflebeam discussed supra, and gun serial number checks, see also Hicks and J.L. discussed supra. The Office of the Sheriff, orChief of Policeare therefore subject to personal liability for damage claims under 42 USC 1983. See Will v. Michigan Dept. of State Police, 491 U.S. 58 (1989); Ex parte Young, 209 U.S. 123 (1908).

It is the constitutional right of open carriers to enjoy the same freedom of movement and right of assembly in society as those wishing to carry concealed, or not at all. The purpose of law enforcement is to help ensure open carriers enjoy these freedoms, not to stifle them.
 

Richard6218

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I should preface my comments with some background. I am first an avid shooter, owner of several guns including seven handguns and a holder of a Washington CCW license. Having said that, I have some serious reservations about this letter template.

You make extensive reference to cases in other states and the federal courts, but I have found no citation of Washington law (RCW 9.41) supporting the assertion that it is legal to open carry in the state. On the contrary, RCW 9.41.270(1) specifically prohibits the carrying of weapons:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Not being a lawyer, I contacted one for a legal opinion. He confirmed what I had read, which was that were I to walk down a street in a city in Washington I would very likely be arrested under this sub-section. I for one am unwilling to sit in a jail cell and lose my trusty Glock for the sake of testing this idea.

I support your idea in principle, as it has a basis in the Second Amendment of the US Constitution and 1.24 of the Washington constitution. However, law enforcement is the wrong target for your campaign. You need to address this letter to state legislators. Unless the RCW is changed, and specifically 9.41.270, it will remain illegal to open carry in this state.
 

Mainsail

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Richard6218 wrote:
I should preface my comments with some background. I am first an avid shooter, owner of several guns including seven handguns and a holder of a Washington CCW license. Having said that, I have some serious reservations about this letter template.

You make extensive reference to cases in other states and the federal courts, but I have found no citation of Washington law (RCW 9.41) supporting the assertion that it is legal to open carry in the state. On the contrary, RCW 9.41.270(1) specifically prohibits the carrying of weapons:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Not being a lawyer, I contacted one for a legal opinion. He confirmed what I had read, which was that were I to walk down a street in a city in Washington I would very likely be arrested under this sub-section. I for one am unwilling to sit in a jail cell and lose my trusty Glock for the sake of testing this idea.

I support your idea in principle, as it has a basis in the Second Amendment of the US Constitution and 1.24 of the Washington constitution. However, law enforcement is the wrong target for your campaign. You need to address this letter to state legislators. Unless the RCW is changed, and specifically 9.41.270, it will remain illegal to open carry in this state.
Hoo-boy. What attorney did you contact that offered this opinion? Please provide a name.

Please read the whole RCW, not just the beginning part. It says it’s unlawful to carry a certain way under certain specific conditions:

The How:
..in a manner and under circumstances and at a time and place that:
The conditions:

…manifests an intent to intimidate –or- warrants alarm for the safety of others.
Walking around town with a pistol in a holster on your belt does not manifest an intent to intimidate. One would have to be motioning to the gun while attempting to commit some other crime.

Walking around town with a pistol in a holster on your belt does not warrant alarm for the safety of others unless you are practicing your quick-draw on the city bus or some such.
 

just_a_car

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Mainsail wrote:
Hoo-boy. What attorney did you contact that offered this opinion? Please provide a name.

Please read the whole RCW, not just the beginning part. It says it’s unlawful to carry a certain way under certain specific conditions:

The How:
..in a manner –or- under circumstances and at a time and place that:
The conditions:

…manifests an intent to intimidate –or- warrants alarm for the safety of others.
Walking around town with a pistol in a holster on your belt does not manifest an intent to intimidate. One would have to be motioning to the gun while attempting to commit some other crime.

Walking around town with a pistol in a holster on your belt does not warrant alarm for the safety of others unless you are practicing your quick-draw on the city bus or some such.
Correction, the "How" should read:
..in a manner –and- under circumstances and at a time and place that:

...as it is seperated by commas and the only operative word at the end is "and"; there is no "or" with regards to the how. Allfour of the above quantifiers (manner,circumstances, time, and place)must be met to convict someone of violating this RCW. If any of the four do not meet the "intent to intimidate" or "warrants alarm for the safety of others", then the statute is not met.

IANAL.
 

Mainsail

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just_a_car wrote:
...as it is seperated by commas and the only operative word at the end is "and"; there is no "or" with regards to the how. Allfour of the above quantifiers (manner,circumstances, time, and place)must be met to convict someone of violating this RCW. If any of the four do not meet the "intent to intimidate" or "warrants alarm for the safety of others", then the statute is not met.

IANAL.
Yes, my bad. I'll fix it in my post.
 

Richard6218

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I agree that the operative phrase(s) are "... an intent to intimidate another..." and "...or that warrants alarm...". It is pretty clear that an intent to intimidate would be manifested by a threatening motion including reaching for the weapon; not likely, unless one wants to be arrested. The other, about warrants alarm is much more tenuous. It would be entirely at the discretion of the officer to determine whether the presence of a weapon warrants alarm. This leaves it open to others second-guessing the carrier's intent. If the officer thinks you MIGHT pull your weapon merely because you have it, that is reason enough to arrest under this sub-paragraph. I am not willing to take that chance.
 

Richard6218

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I knew when I posted this that I was stepping into a hornet's nest. But I really do think that we would not be debating this if the law were more specific. What we need to do is to change the LAW, not testing the existing law by attacking law enforcement.
 

Right Wing Wacko

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From the Washington State Court of Appeals:
We note that, in connection with this case, several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad's appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual's lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.
 

deanf

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Richard,

I think you need to spend some more time reading various threads in the WA sub-forum. Go back several months. Pay particular attention to the various training bulletins issued by large police departments in this state.

Once you have done this, reevaluate your opinion and come back and talk to us.

-Dean
 

carhas0

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Richard6218 wrote:
I agree that the operative phrase(s) are "... an intent to intimidate another..." and "...or that warrants alarm...". It is pretty clear that an intent to intimidate would be manifested by a threatening motion including reaching for the weapon; not likely, unless one wants to be arrested. The other, about warrants alarm is much more tenuous. It would be entirely at the discretion of the officer to determine whether the presence of a weapon warrants alarm. This leaves it open to others second-guessing the carrier's intent. If the officer thinks you MIGHT pull your weapon merely because you have it, that is reason enough to arrest under this sub-paragraph. I am not willing to take that chance.
You left out part of a key phrase above. The law does not say that carrying the weapon must "warrant alarm" but that it must "warrant alarm for the safety of other persons." To arrest under this portion of the statute, the officers must be able to articulate that someone was carrying in "a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that...warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." This is far from "if the officer thinks you might pull your weapon."

This law is really not as ambiguous as it might seem, when interpreted with the corresponding case law. I think you're ignoring the fact that case law does exist and defines open carry as lawful. RCW 9.41.270 is essentially a brandishing statute, and peacable open carry is not brandishing.

On top of the purely legal stuff, just look at the fact that many here openly carry every day and are seldom even contacted by officers. Even the rare times that open carriers are contacted, even if they are threatened with arrest, there has not been a single case since recent court decisions that has resulted in an arrest of an open carrier for simply open carrying.

The reasoning behind educating (not "attacking" as you say) police departments is because the legislature and the courts already agree that open carry is legal; they are not the ones that need convincing. It is the police departments that need to be educated about the true interpretation of the law by informing them of the case law and legislative intent. This strategy has been quite successful in educating departments at the department-wide level, as many departments have issued training bulletins (available here: http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=1cd88718168f327a8d5a6609f10e0619&action=downloads;cat=1). The problem seems to lie with getting that information to individual officers, which has not been as successful, but many seem to have been educated.

Given the legality of open carry guaranteed by our legislature, the courts, and many police departments, coupled with the empirical evidence of the many people who open carry everyday without being arrested or even contacted by police, your argument is not very convincing. For your sake, I hope you find better legal counsel for advice on any future problems you may have, as this one gave you incorrect advice, but I am not a lawyer.
 

Mainsail

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Richard6218 wrote:
If the officer thinks you MIGHT pull your weapon merely because you have it, that is reason enough to arrest under this sub-paragraph. I am not willing to take that chance.
I haven’t gotten an answer to the first question; who was the lawyer?

No police officer with even one day of training would arrest someone for something they might do, the statute notwithstanding. My Crown Vic Interceptor can easily do 130MPH before the speed limiter kicks in, yet I drive without fear that the police will arrest me merely because I might break the speed limit.

So no, regardless of what the officer thinks you might do, you cannot be arrested under the statute for mere open carry.
 

team one

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Laws are not made to allow things, they are made to restrict or prohibit things. For example there is no law allowing one to cook spaghetti on a Thursday night, nonetheless, it is not illegal to cook spaghetti on Thursday night. Same idea with open carry, it is legal, regardless how you or a police officer feels about it. It is not up to an officer to decide that your action warrants alarm, though he could conceivable arrest you because he feels that way, however a court would never uphold that simple OC meets the requirments of 9.41.270.

Richard6128, if you knew you were stepping into a hornets nest, why wouldn't you do some simple research first? You would have quickly found you were in error, and not looked foolish. There is plenty of info covering all the points you mention, in previous threads, the pamphlet, etc.
 

Ajetpilot

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Welcome to the forum, Richard6218!

I hope you stick around, read, learn, and contribute. I also hopeone dayyou will join usin open carry, but that is certainly not a requirement.

Come to one of our luncheons sometime. You'll meet some great folks who jealously guardtheir Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Additionally, you will have the opportunity to see a group of people openly carrying in a public place and not being confronted by LE.

Again, welcome!
 

Richard6218

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The lawyer was a staff attorney on the website JustAnswer.com. I sent him the entire letter template and asked specific questions of him about the relevant sections of RCW 9.41. His answer was pointed and knowledgeable and was a direct reply to my question, so I accepted it as stated.
 

Richard6218

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I will disregard your remark about my looking foolish.

As to the question of doing research, you may note that I did read the pertinent sections of state law, which are conspicuously absent in the template letter. I then contacted an attorney with 20 years' criminal law experience, sent him the template and asked pointed questions about the law and the assertions in the letter. I based my posting on the response I received from him.
 

carhas0

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Richard6218 wrote:
I will disregard your remark about my looking foolish.

As to the question of doing research, you may note that I did read the pertinent sections of state law, which are conspicuously absent in the template letter. I then contacted an attorney with 20 years' criminal law experience, sent him the template and asked pointed questions about the law and the assertions in the letter. I based my posting on the response I received from him.

I appreciate that you didn't just come here and assert that there is no way OC is legal and the SWAT team would come, etc. However, to be frank, I think you wasted your money in asking that question, because you got bad legal advice. The fact is, as I posted above, many people carry openly everyday and are rarely even contacted by law enforcement. Even when they are, they are not arrested.
 
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