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Thread: Another encounter with Everett PD

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    So today I took a walk, a bout a mile and a half up to my bank. Walking along the sidewalk strong side toward traffic, A Everett PD car drove by me and pulled into the parking lot in front of me. Islid my digital video camera out of my pocket as he asked me to come over to his car as he got out. I greeted him with a friendly "Hey how is it going" He asked if we could step around to the backside of his car so we would be out of the way of passing cars. He asked if he could see my ID and as I had decided to give SV's idea a try I complied while asking why he had stopped me. He asked "why are you carrying a gun like that?" I replied "I carry a gun for self protection"

    Officer: No I mean why are you carrying it open on your hip like that.

    Me: "It's just the way Iprefer to carry my gun"

    Officer: "Have you ever thought of just getting a CPL?"

    Me: "I have one but I carry open most of the time as it helps prevent crime"

    Officer: "Well, no it doesn't"

    Me: "I have seen that it does, If I carry concealed I am hiding my gun and trying to trick someone into attacking me so I have an excuse to use it. By open carrying I avoid that situation altogether.

    The officer did not have a reply to this and simply asked if he could have my CPL to run it with my drivers licence, again following SV's advise I complied. By this time three additional cars had arrived and the other officers were standing about fifteen feet away not saying anything. While the first officer was running my info I made small talk with the other officers. all thee of the other officers were friendly and seemed a little bemused by the situation. One of them asked if open carry was becoming "kind of a movement in Everett" I told him about OCDO and said it was growing all over the state. The officer seeing my camera in my hand asked if I was "out taking pictures today" And I told him that I carry the video camera to protect myself from cops who break the law and I mentioned the incident at the library. He said "it sounds like you have really been doing your research on this" I said " I have to as so many cops are poorly educated on the subject'' He mentioned the training bulletin and I asked if he was referring to the one issued a couple years ago and he said he thinks there is a new one but they haven't started issuing it at roll call yet. (Maybe my letter to IA is doing some good) The first officer came back and handed me my DL and CPL back and gave me the usual speech about how people get scared when they see guns to which I replied that People get scared about all kinds of things that aren't illegal. He affirmed that OC is legal but said (indicating my CPL ) "These things are a gift and they can be taken away" I replied "Yes, for breaking the law" and the officer said "or for pushing it like you are, but you are going to do what you are going to do" Me: "Yes I will" I bid them goodbye and continued on my walk, Two cars drove by me and one of them the officer was on his radio as he was looking at me. I went to my bank inside the Fred Meyer's and as usual the tellers were very friendly and made no mention of my gun.

    I have decided I need some additional exercise as I no longer live close enough to work to ride my bicycle so I think I will try and ride at least five miles each morning Until either I am skinny or the cops stop hassling me, whichever comes first

    Oh, BTW the first officer said he stopped me because a man standing at the bus stop had flagged him over and told him he had seen me carrying a gun. I asked what he would do if someone had flagged him over and said that he had seen a man wearing a red sweater. He didn't seem to think the two situations were comparable.

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    Heh, it's getting better. I don't like his attituted about CPL's being a gift... this is a shall issue state after all. Mebbe he didn't understand that. Cops who talk like that, I wonder if they are from another state originally, where things are not as civilized as here...

    Glad the encounter went well.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    That went well?

    How many illegal seizures are you going to tolerate before you just say, “No, you may not see my papers!”

    He affirmed that OC is legal
    So was his unlawful detention a personal policy or a departmental one? The rules of Terry are very clear and there is no firearms exception. If the man on the bus reported something that wasn’t a crime, andthe officerdid not observe you committing a crime, he kidnapped you. And you’re happy about that?

    “Are you detaining me?”

    “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I don't like his attituted about CPL's being a gift... this is a shall issue state after all.
    Good point.

    In a "shall issue" state the proper response to a claim that a CPL is a gift is "No, it's not. By state law, they cannot be denied to any citizen with a clean record".

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    Mainsail wrote:
    That went well?

    How many illegal seizures are you going to tolerate before you just say, “No, you may not see my papers!”

    He affirmed that OC is legal
    So was his unlawful detention a personal policy or a departmental one? The rules of Terry are very clear and there is no firearms exception. If the man on the bus reported something that wasn’t a crime, andthe officerdid not observe you committing a crime, he kidnapped you. And you’re happy about that?

    “Are you detaining me?”

    “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”
    Well it went well in that there was no cuffing or stuffing... and less hostility than usual. If I lived in Everett I would be happy about that.

    I think it is time now that OC is clearly established as legal in most places to work on the whole stopping people in the first place thing.

    I fear it will take a lawsuit though...

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    Mainsail wrote:
    That went well?

    How many illegal seizures are you going to tolerate before you just say, “No, you may not see my papers!”

    He affirmed that OC is legal
    So was his unlawful detention a personal policy or a departmental one? The rules of Terry are very clear and there is no firearms exception. If the man on the bus reported something that wasn’t a crime, andthe officerdid not observe you committing a crime, he kidnapped you. And you’re happy about that?

    “Are you detaining me?”

    “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?”
    Come on Mainsail, Like I said I was giving SV's Idea a try just to see how it would play out. Everyone here knows I have experience with the "Am I being detained method" I take each encounter and adjust my attitude and responses based upon the attitude and responses of the officers involved. I know what it is to be detained and in this case I do not feel that I was. Terry stopped? Yes but detained against my will? No.

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    Not a bad encounter, but not great. I was just down in Everett getting the vehicles licensed and literally carried my audio recorder in my hand in case I was stopped. I think it would be a good thing for you to get dispatch tapes and go ahead and file a complaint though. PITA that it is to do so, since he wasn't conducting a legal Terry stop it still needs to go to IA and you could use all the evidence you can get if this continues.

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    Agent 47 wrote:

    I know what it is to be detained and in this case I do not feel that I was. Terry stopped? Yes but detained against my will? No.


    did youfeel free to go?

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    It seems important to most officers to "maintain control" of the situation. Sadly, many do this with veiled (or not so veiled) threats.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Come on Mainsail, Like I said I was giving SV's Idea a try just to see how it would play out.
    I take each encounter and adjust my attitude and responses based upon the attitude and responses of the officers involved.
    I'm curious as to how you would rate your tactics during this stop as compared to your others. How will you adjust your tactics next time?

    You have more experience than anyone else. I value your opinions highly!

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Come on Mainsail, Like I said I was giving SV's Idea a try just to see how it would play out. Everyone here knows I have experience with the "Am I being detained method" I take each encounter and adjust my attitude and responses based upon the attitude and responses of the officers involved. I know what it is to be detained and in this case I do not feel that I was. Terry stopped? Yes but detained against my will? No.
    Then what, exactly, was your goal? To convince the officer that OC is lawful? He already knew that. You fight hard for your firearms rights and allow the police to violate your privacy rights. You seem to be saying that you entered into a consensual encounter with the officers but you never reveal why. What is SV’s idea that you were trying? I’m not criticizing you, just trying to understand what you consider better. I would think that ‘better’ would be the police obeying the law and respecting your civil rights.

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    I feel that had I pushed the issue I could have walked away. But because he asked for my information rather than demanding it I decided to cooperate to a point. Had any of them pushed the issue I had my camera which may very well explain why the first officer was not a complete jerk. I could have very easily turned on the camera to begin with and gone right to the Am I being detained but decided to go the rout I did and I do not regret it. Had I someplace important to go I may have broken off the encounter before it began but I saw no reason to cause a problem I prefer to wait for the cops to do that, (Looks better in a lawsuit that way ) I think (depending on exact circumstances) I may refuse DL and CPL in future I can just tell them my name a birth-date this makes it easier to break off the contact if they turn nasty rather than them holding my papers hostage until they let me go. In this case however they were returned to me in a timely manner. In other encounters they have refused to return them to me while insisting that I am not being detained.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Then what, exactly, was your goal? To convince the officer that OC is lawful? He already knew that. You fight hard for your firearms rights and allow the police to violate your privacy rights. You seem to be saying that you entered into a consensual encounter with the officers but you never reveal why. What is SV’s idea that you were trying? I’m not criticizing you, just trying to understand what you consider better. I would think that ‘better’ would be the police obeying the law and respecting your civil rights.
    Better means better than my last encounter. As for SV's Idea it is this thread. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/11357.html

    As for my goal, It is to have a walk, and I did. Went to my bank, got some exercise, I see the improvement from my last encounter to this oneas good. All the officers except for the first one seem to have no issue with OC and the first officer was not able to refutemy arguments in favor of OC. I won the argument with him and had no argument with the others.

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    Then what, exactly, was your goal? To convince the officer that OC is lawful? He already knew that. You fight hard for your firearms rights and allow the police to violate your privacy rights. You seem to be saying that you entered into a consensual encounter with the officers but you never reveal why. What is SV’s idea that you were trying? I’m not criticizing you, just trying to understand what you consider better. I would think that ‘better’ would be the police obeying the law and respecting your civil rights.
    Better means better than my last encounter. As for SV's Idea it is this thread. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/11357.html

    As for my goal, It is to have a walk, and I did. Went to my bank, got some exercise, I see the improvement from my last encounter to this oneas good. All the officers except for the first one seem to have no issue with OC and the first officer was not able to refutemy arguments in favor of OC. I won the argument with him and had no argument with the others.
    I suspect also that the more times this happens the less likely it is to happen as the officers have positive experiences and become more educated. Is this any different from taking your free time to go into the police station and talk to the folks there about training bulletins etc? Probably not. OJT for the officers.

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    I think I need to visit my family in Everett more......

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    I Love it. "A gift".



    His job is a gift.



    Way to keep cool man.

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    Wheelgunner wrote:
    I Love it. "A gift".
    His job is a gift.
    Way to keep cool man.
    Agreed. That's where I'd have "lost it" with this cop. "A gift." Funniest thing I've heard in a while!

    "Sir, how many Christmas gifts do you have to fill out paperwork, get printed, wait for a background check to be completedand pay $60 for???"

    "The lawsuit you're flirting with is 'a gift.'"

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    A gift? Hmm. Bestowed by him no doubt.Even if it is,open carry is protected by the constitution. No gift required. Or perhaps he thinks the constitution is a gift as well.

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    gsx1138 wrote:
    It seems important to most officers to "maintain control" of the situation. Sadly, many do this with veiled (or not so veiled) threats.
    They do this because most are "control freaks". Many are drawn to the job because of this "defect" in their personality.

    Sadly, these officers detract from those that truly like the work they do as part of the community.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    irfner wrote:
    A gift? Hmm. Bestowed by him no doubt.Even if it is,open carry is protected by the constitution. No gift required. Or perhaps he thinks the constitution is a gift as well.
    Whats funny is when he threatened that my CPL could be revoked, I said " That would be to bad because then I wouldhave to open carry 100% of the time. He didn't like that.

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    irfner wrote:
    A gift? Hmm. Bestowed by him no doubt.Even if it is,open carry is protected by the constitution. No gift required. Or perhaps he thinks the constitution is a gift as well.
    Whats funny is when he threatened that my CPL could be revoked, I said " That would be to bad because then I wouldhave to open carry 100% of the time. He didn't like that.
    LOL, he wasn't thinking very far ahead.

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    amlevin wrote:
    gsx1138 wrote:
    It seems important to most officers to "maintain control" of the situation. Sadly, many do this with veiled (or not so veiled) threats.
    They do this because most are "control freaks". Many are drawn to the job because of this "defect" in their personality.

    Sadly, these officers detract from those that truly like the work they do as part of the community.
    The intelligent cops maintain control without rudeness or disrespect by showing civility at the outset. Gentlemen respond to civility with civility. One can always become unpleasant later. Only a fool starts out this way and it usually stats out with a preconceived notion of police superiority. This kind of cop thinks that there only are two kinds of people in the world: cops and criminals.

    MD

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    One of things I thinkmany havefailed to realize is most if not all of the road cops support open carry. It is the liberal administrators who don't. If someone complains they are required to investigate. He was free to go at anytime and could have walked away. Ask him. You may not like how the cop protrayed the permit process. It is a gift since you have to ask for it to carry it even if you have to pay for it. I think it should be free.

    You get more support by supporting those who safe guard your freedoms instead of being rude and calling them hungrey control freaks. Sometimes the academy brainwashes the new recruits. IA complaints cause resentment.

    Support open carry by sending letters to those appointed and elected positions. Education is the key. We are here to support you but we have to consider all encounters with caution. To many it is just a job where wewant to go homeat the end of the tour.



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    skookum wrote:
    One of things I thinkmany havefailed to realize is most if not all of the road cops support open carry. It is the liberal administrators who don't. If someone complains they are required to investigate. He was free to go at anytime and could have walked away. Ask him. You may not like how the cop protrayed the permit process. It is a gift since you have to ask for it to carry it even if you have to pay for it. I think it should be free.

    You get more support by supporting those who safe guard your freedoms instead of being rude and calling them hungrey control freaks. Sometimes the academy brainwashes the new recruits. IA complaints cause resentment.

    Support open carry by sending letters to those appointed and elected positions. Education is the key. We are here to support you but we have to consider all encounters with caution. To many it is just a job where wewant to go homeat the end of the tour.

    I will give you "most" but certainly not "all" As I have personally encountered several cops from numerous departments who are vehemently against open carry and have expressed as much to me. I agree a lot of the bad feelings toward open carry are from the Liberal administrators as is evident by the cops I have known who have expressed support for open carry and been severely reprimanded by their department for it. As it has been pointed out here Detaining a citizen for open carrying is expressly against the law and cops who do it should be punished the same as if they broke any other law. I was detained against my will at the library and I am seeking to see the officers involved dealt with in accordance with the law I was not detained against my will in the situation in this thread. The officers involved were walking a thin line but it would have come down to something as simple as me expressing that I wished to be on my way and them denying me that. The only thing I see wrong with the situation under discussion is the Primary officers "threat that if I continue to open carry I could loose my CPL this of course was a lie on his part and could be a violation of USC 18 242 as his statement was an attempt to restrict me from exercising a right guaranteed by law. Oh and as this is a "Shall Issue state" Citizens do not "ask" for a CPL and it is not up to anyones discretion or personal feelings toward guns weather they issue it or not, If the person has a clean record the department is forced tosign a CPL for them. So In this state a CPL is certainly not a "Gift" Itis a guarantee and the primary officers statement that I could loose mine for continuing in my legal actions was laughable and showed a deplorable lack of legal understanding on his part. If I go into a police station and demand a CPL and they are required by lawto give it to me within 30 days then how can it be a "gift"

    Incidentally Skookum, were you one of the responding officers?

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    skookum wrote:
    One of things I thinkmany havefailed to realize is most if not all of the road cops support open carry. It is the liberal administrators who don't. If someone complains they are required to investigate. He was free to go at anytime and could have walked away. Ask him. You may not like how the cop protrayed the permit process. It is a gift since you have to ask for it to carry it even if you have to pay for it. I think it should be free.

    You get more support by supporting those who safe guard your freedoms instead of being rude and calling them hungrey control freaks. Sometimes the academy brainwashes the new recruits. IA complaints cause resentment.

    Support open carry by sending letters to those appointed and elected positions. Education is the key. We are here to support you but we have to consider all encounters with caution. To many it is just a job where wewant to go homeat the end of the tour.

    Welcome Skookum. I have met cops in Oly who support OC, cops who were against it, and cops who said they have changed their minds on it, and now have no problem.

    I think it depends a lot on the officers, and also what information they get on the subject and the examples they see. Up to date training and reasonable OC'rs help the cause a lot.

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