Am I Being Detained?

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The video was excellent. Wish more people had the courage displayed by him.

XD45PlusP wrote:

SV, when is enough, enough? How much is too much for you?

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Some quotes to ponder, XD:


Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. - Barry Goldwater

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined. - Patrick Henry

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Ajetpilot wrote:

Did you see the STOP sign? Had he gone through it, he would have been breaking the law. What is wrong with him asking, "Am I being detained?" Why wasn't he provided an answer instantly?

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Becuase the officers didn't have a checklist that covered someone asserting their rights.

Be polite - and terse. The object is not to make it as "easy" as possible. The object is to make usurption of my rights as undesirable as I have the time and resources to make it.

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nosliw wrote:

...can't a LEO use your suspicious behavior as a reason to do anything he wants?

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What is suspicious about asserting one's Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights???


"He refused to let me search his car without a warrant, and he refused to answer any of my questions!!! He is OBVIOUSLY guilty of SOMETHING!!!"

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.



Benjamin Franklin

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good points.

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I'm sorry if I come across a little harshly on this subject, but I, and a number of others here, spent over twenty years of our lives to, "support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic." I take umbrage towards those who would throw away so quickly, the rightswe fought to defend.

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Who are throwing away rights?

Some cops are violating them, no question. The issue is how to deal with them. Too many people are tied up in fighing the battle right on the spot where it won't do any good.

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Like any other LEO type they have a job to do. It would not have hurt this a-hole to say I am a US Citizen. For any of you that live close to a porous border...catching the drugs works better away from the border than just at the checkpoints. I don't see how his actions did any good for anyone other than block traffic. The agents on the deckplates don't make the rules...this to me is right up there with fanatical demonstrators who feel they can block traffic to get arrested for their 15 minutes of fame.

Don't get me wrong...I am not happy with a lot of the patriot act and the actions taken by the government in the name of fighting terrorism.....but harassing the guys and gals that actually put it on the line for the public is not going to change anything. We need to find an effective way to get this stopped but I really don't think that failing to answer a question like what country are you from just doesn't work for me. And I did 29 years in the service and I still don't understand his point. Remember...driving a vehicle on the roads is a privilege not a right, so in my opinion he should have answered the question.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Who are throwing away rights?

Some cops are violating them, no question. The issue is how to deal with them. Too many people are tied up in fighing the battle right on the spot where it won't do any good.

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Ah, but these are the front lines.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004364797_ferrypatrol22m.html

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Sean wrote:

Like any other LEO type they have a job to do. It would not have hurt this a-hole to say I am a US Citizen. For any of you that live close to a porous border...catching the drugs works better away from the border than just at the checkpoints. I don't see how his actions did any good for anyone other than block traffic. The agents on the deckplates don't make the rules...this to me is right up there with fanatical demonstrators who feel they can block traffic to get arrested for their 15 minutes of fame.

Don't get me wrong...I am not happy with a lot of the patriot act and the actions taken by the government in the name of fighting terrorism.....but harassing the guys and gals that actually put it on the line for the public is not going to change anything. We need to find an effective way to get this stopped but I really don't think that failing to answer a question like what country are you from just doesn't work for me. And I did 29 years in the service and I still don't understand his point. Remember...driving a vehicle on the roads is a privilege not a right, so in my opinion he should have answered the question.

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Is paying taxes a priveledge, or a right?

I disagree with you Sean.

Justice Tolman of the Supreme Court of the State of Washington. Justice Tolman stated:

"Complete freedom of the highways is so old and well established a blessing that we have forgotten the days of the Robber Barons and toll roads, and yet, under an act like this, arbitrarily administered, the highways may be completely monopolized, if, through lack of interest, the people submit, then they may look to see the most sacred of their liberties taken from them one by one, by more or less rapid encroachment." Robertson vs. Department of Public Works, 180 Wash 133, 147.

The words of Justice Tolman ring most prophetically in the ears of Citizens throughout the country today as the use of the public roads has been monopolized by the very entity which has been empowered to stand guard over our freedoms, i.e., that of state government.

http://www.arkenterprises.com/ritepriv.htm

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/DrivingRight.html

Boy, you guys would just lay downnnnnnnn.... I AM ASHAMED

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nosliw wrote:

what's the idea behind this polite resistance?

if you aren't being "detained" (under suspicion of what crime yada yada) then are you obligated to do anything for them or give any information up?

if you're acting in this way, can't a LEO use your suspicious behavior as a reason to do anything he wants? isn't the street a bad place to debate with a power-tripping officer?

i'm not real strong on either side of this, just find it interesting.

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It has been ruled that refusing to answer questions or allow a search does not constitute reasonable suspicion for a search. I believe if you are driving a car, or certain other situations, a license or address may be required to be given by law, but I am not a lawyer.

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Screw this guy, and anyone who supports this crap.

If he/you can't claim "I aman AMERICAN citizen" you don't deserve our "constitutional rights".

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holepoker wrote:

Screw this guy, and anyone who supports this crap.

If he/you can't claim "I aman AMERICAN citizen" you don't deserve our "constitutional rights".

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I think you made a wrong turn. The democratic convention is two forums down on the right!

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holepoker wrote:

Screw this guy, and anyone who supports this crap.

If he/you can't claim "I aman AMERICAN citizen" you don't deserve our "civil rights".

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I dont think your taking the point they're making. It may not be that big of a deal to answer a question when your stopped but its a slippery slope. Personally, if i was asked the question i would answer it with the truth because i see no reason not to. I would probably answer anyone that asked that question as I'm proud of the answer.

Answering that simple statement, however, is as far as I go. When/if im asked to "prove it" by showing id or "papers" its too much; and your sure as hell not going to find them searching my car or "detaining" me in any way without my having a say so in it. Yes, you could argue that they've already detained me by stopping me without cause and you'd be technically correct. But if thats the case then everyone who drives like a moron on I-405 is going to jail for detaining me tomorrow in traffic.

You have to protect your rights with all the piss and vinegar god gave you, but you alsohave to know how and when to pick yourbattles. I'm headed to the San Juan's in July via the Ferry system. I'll be OC'ing as much as possible, we'll see what DHS does with that.

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holepoker wrote:

Screw this guy, and anyone who supports this crap.

If he/you can't claim "I aman AMERICAN citizen" you don't deserve our "constitutional rights".

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He can and he does, but he has no duty or obligation to declare it when unlawfully stopped by BPA's, especially when he is 146 miles from the border.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

I keep on insisiting the same thing, once a cop has you detained, legally or illegally what does it matter to give them your ID? What does it matter to be polite?

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I might agree with this in an OC stop situation, but in this case, a border patrol check, identification is exactly what the officers want, and giving identification is exactly what we should AVOID unless we want identifying ourselves at random checkpoints to become part of our everyday life.

In the case of OC, the point you're trying to make is that you can openly carry a gun legally. In the video, the point he was trying to make is that he doesn't have to prove who he is in order to be allowed to drive down the road. Answering their questions and providing ID would have defeated the purpose, just as much as telling the officers "Okay, I have a permit so I'll cover it up and keep it covered in the future" would defeat the purpose.

As for the politeness issue... yeah, he could have used a nicer tone of voice. The persistent denial of detention BUT refusal to give permission to leave would have made it rather difficult for anyone to stay perfectly polite, though.

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holepoker wrote:

Screw this guy, and anyone who supports this crap.

If he/you can't claim "I aman AMERICAN citizen" you don't deserve our "constitutional rights".

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Okay, and when the next question is "Please show me your ID to prove it.", should he give in to that as well? Because that IS the next question. And should he be willing to do this multiple times per day, every day? At what point do you stop and say "NO! I am an AMERICAN and I have a RIGHT to travel about my own country without being tracked or hassled!".

The very best place to stop it is right at the beginning. I think he did a great job.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

XD45PlusP wrote:

SV, when is enough, enough? How much is too much for you? Cause seriously, you seem like the type of guy who would take whatever anyone does to you, whether it be LEO's, or "The Gubment"

I realize salespeople have to "please" the customer, or whomever but this is RIDICULOUS.

Yeah let's work with em. I fail to see how anyone could work with Tyranny.

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Ugh.
Sitting arguing on a dark arizona road or wherever that was, will not change the fact the person was pulled over. Why pull over in the first place if it is all so illegal?
Having "given in" and pulled over in the first place, why have an attitude? Does it help you end the situation faster?

And XD, you are wrong about me "taking" whatever the gubmint hands me. Perhaps you have noticed the lack of bad OC stops coming out of Oly?

I keep on insisiting the same thing, once a cop has you detained, legally or illegally what does it matter to give them your ID? What does it matter to be polite?

Show me a single instance where taking an attitude has ended a stop quickly and in a fashion suitable to the detainee.

But again, my point is ignored in the interests of chest thumping and trying to be a Billy Bad Ass.

I save the politics and rhetoric for when I deal with higher ups.

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I don't think you just give in to whatever, but everyone has different levels of comfort with questioning authority. This guy takes it to a level that leaves me going :shock: but at the same time I'm glad he's doing so, because I see the line of cars in front of him throughout all of his videos that just answered the question.

The checkpoint is a waste of time anyway. If you lie, they use their judgment as to whether or not to put you through a secondary search and seizure of your person and vehicle, mostly based on your race as they wouldn't have a lot more to go off of.

It's not a requirement as a citizen to show your papers because your skin is brown or you don't speak English (although I do sympathize that more English would make life easier). But these guys use that as reasonable suspicion that someone is not an American citizen.

If you speak good English, are confident, and don't look too Mexican, I guess, you'll probably be let through anyway. Great security there, guys.

One more thing - this is like a random DUI checkpoint. They stop all law abiding citizens and just inconvenience them 'a little bit' so they can catch the .01% of people who are breaking the law.

No, I'm personally glad people have the balls to do that. I think he could be slightly more communicative instead of just repeating 'am i being detained' over and over, but ultimately that's the question that needs to be answered. It might be an interesting test to say 'ok, if I'm not being detained then I'm terminating this conversation and I'm going to pull through. Please step away from the vehicle for you own safety - I don't want to accidentally run over your toes!' and then put it in drive.

I suspect he'd be chased, at which point he would have evidence that they said he wasn't being detained. I wonder if that would work in court. I know I wouldn't have the balls to do it

Either way, folks like this guy are doing exactly what we do here at opencarry.org. He's exercising freedoms that he has, and it's... challenging.... to some of us who aren't used to seeing them exercised. But a right not exercised is a right lost.

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holepoker wrote:

Screw this guy, and anyone who supports this crap.

If he/you can't claim "I aman AMERICAN citizen" you don't deserve our "constitutional rights".

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Many people don't deserve their rights, but they are inviolable, and they are not contingent upon claiming you are an American citizen. Not only that, but any Mexican could make the same claim, and there would be no immediate way to prove it but to demand ID - with no reasonable suspicion that someone isn't an American.

Is it ok that brown skinned Americans should have to show their ID but you and I don't as white guys? (or whatever you are, sorry for the assumption)

I don't think so. That's logically the same as saying that anyone with a gun should have to show ID because they might be a criminal.

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This is a prime example of why I am not a LEO because I would probablydragged his butt from the car and pulled a Rodney King on him. :what:It appears that the same ones that are praising this fellow for standing up for his rights are the ones that complain so much about illegal immigration. How is a LEO supposed to know if a person is an American citizen or not without at least asking. This article has nothing to do with this trhread but I'll bet he wishes someone had detained him before he crossed the border.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24943229/