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Thread: Woops! he "forgot" the gun was loaded

  1. #1
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    ALEXANDRIA, La. - An Alexandria man was recovering after accidentally shooting himself while showing his girlfriend how to handle a pistol on Saturday in the parking lot of a fast-food restaurant.

    Police said the 21-year-old man told investigators he forgot he had just reloaded the gun, and squeezed the trigger while putting the gun into the driver's door panel. The bullet went through his inner left thigh.

    Police said the man repeatedly told investigators he was ex-military and knows how to handle a gun, and was very embarrassed by the incident.

    Information from: KALB-TV, http://kalb.com
    I don't know...sounds like the gun handled him.
    Death is lighter than a feather.
    Duty heavier than a mountain.

    - John Steakley

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    Accidents happen, no matter what you think you know.

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    libertyrules wrote:
    while showing his girlfriend how to handle a pistol on Saturday in the parking lot of a fast-food restaurant.
    Why would you be doing this in a parking lot? Wait till you get home.

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    Dustin wrote:
    Accidents happen, no matter what you think you know.
    No kidding! Knowledge is only one part of gun safety.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.

    If you ALWAYS treat the gun as if it is loaded even when you KNOWthat is is unloaded, if you do havea NEGLIGENT discharge, it should be in a safe direction.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.

    If you ALWAYS treat the gun as if it is loaded even when you KNOWthat is is unloaded, if you do havea NEGLIGENT discharge, it should be in a safe direction.

    Right On !

    That's what I follow !

    I know he learned in BC "Never Point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot"

    I wonder if he intended on shooting himself LOL !


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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.
    As much as I like you I’m going to have to disagree with this statement. This is another case of saying something that sounds good because it sounds good, not because it has any substance. It is the dumbing-down of the real firearms rules that contributes to these NDs.
    All guns are not always loaded.
    If they were always loaded we would never clean, admire, show, or dry-fire them.

    By definition, a RULE must be inviolate. You cannot teach and practice, “all guns are always loaded” and then demonstrate behavior completely inconsistent with the statement. By bastardizing the real rule you enable dangerous situations like the one in the story.

    If I say I have a rule that I will not drive after drinking alcohol only to decide later, when I’m drunk, that I can probably make it home and drive, then I really have no rule at all. I will have demonstrated that the “rule” is a lie.

    The real rule is, “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.” To which I add; “If it leaves your hand for any amount of time, check it again.”

    If you or the person to whom you’re teaching firearms safety cannot intellectually grasp the real rule and you have to simplify it so much that it becomes a lie, it would be best for everyone if you/they didn’t own a firearm.

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    that sucks

    I never pull the trigger, unless I'm ready to fire or I know for a fact (physically and visually) it is empty just before hand, but thats not often

    It seems like this happens a lot, a Chief of Police for Riverdale, UT did the same thing thinking it was unloaded and shot him self in the ankel


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    Mainsail wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.
    As much as I like you I’m going to have to disagree with this statement. This is another case of saying something that sounds good because it sounds good, not because it has any substance. It is the dumbing-down of the real firearms rules that contributes to these NDs.
    All guns are not always loaded.
    If they were always loaded we would never clean, admire, show, or dry-fire them.

    By definition, a RULE must be inviolate. You cannot teach and practice, “all guns are always loaded” and then demonstrate behavior completely inconsistent with the statement. By bastardizing the real rule you enable dangerous situations like the one in the story.

    If I say I have a rule that I will not drive after drinking alcohol only to decide later, when I’m drunk, that I can probably make it home and drive, then I really have no rule at all. I will have demonstrated that the “rule” is a lie.

    The real rule is, “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.” To which I add; “If it leaves your hand for any amount of time, check it again.”

    If you or the person to whom you’re teaching firearms safety cannot intellectually grasp the real rule and you have to simplify it so much that it becomes a lie, it would be best for everyone if you/they didn’t own a firearm.
    +1,000,000

    Finally!!!!I've been waiting for somebody to say this. Thank you!!!

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    Mainsail wrote:
    As much as I like you I’m going to have to disagree with this statement.
    <1>
    This is another case of saying something that sounds good because it sounds good, not because it has any substance. It is the dumbing-down of the real firearms rules that contributes to these NDs.

    All guns are not always loaded.

    <2>
    If they were always loaded we would never clean, admire, show, or dry-fire them.



    <3>
    By definition, a RULE must be inviolate. You cannot teach and practice, “all guns are always loaded” and then demonstrate behavior completely inconsistent with the statement.

    <4>
    By bastardizing the real rule you enable dangerous situations like the one in the story.

    <5>
    If I say I have a rule that I will not drive after drinking alcohol only to decide later, when I’m drunk, that I can probably make it home and drive, then I really have no rule at all. I will have demonstrated that the “rule” is a lie.


    <6>
    The real rule is, “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.” To which I add; “If it leaves your hand for any amount of time, check it again.”


    <7>
    If you or the person to whom you’re teaching firearms safety cannot intellectually grasp the real rule and you have to simplify it so much that it becomes a lie, it would be best for everyone if you/they didn’t own a firearm.

    Ok I'm not sure what the hell you just tried to do, but you completely failed to do anything but express your own ability or lack there of to as you say, "intellectually grasp the real rule !"

    No one simplified but you !

    Let's dig deeper in this pile of random junk speech you performed above and see if we can even attempt to comrehend your Ridiculous Logic.

    1: Saying "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded" is the dumbing down of the Rule ? How so ? Maybe it's a dumbing down of your dumbed down version of the rule. Being that this phrase and safety tactic has and still is used by just about if not ALL of the Military in the WORLD ! We would be hard pressed to believe that somehow YOU ALONE have come to the conclusion it's a Dumbed Down Law !?!? Please !

    Then you say, "All guns are not always loaded."

    Yea thanks Captain Obvious, but that doesn't mean you treat them that way.

    2: Why are you dry firing your weapon anyway !?!? Plus when I hand mypistol to a friend, I handed it to them with the slide back. When they take it, they treat it as if it were loaded, NEVER POINTING IT at ANYTHING they DO NOT intend to shoot !

    3: Yea, That's the entire argument ! The Kid chose to VIOLATE the Rule that states, "Treat every Weapon as if it were loaded", by pointing it towards himself. By Violating the Same Rule we are claiming we follow, he allowed himself to be in a position where he shot himself. Not sure why you even wrote that.

    4: Wrong ! By Not obeying the rule, you can put your self in this situation. BUT, By using your logic, this situation will happen constantly and Inevitably as we'll see here shortly.

    5: Yep, and your point is ? You being inconsistent with what the rule states, has NOTHING to do with whether or not that rule is CORRECT, but everything to do with you NOT being able to adhere to the rule. So If you later drive home drunk, than that's your fault, not the rule that you made up's, Fault.

    6: Now time for the BS Flag of Strawmen and Red Herrings !

    First you draw your strawman argument by quoting the rule your talking about, BUT You Fail to quote it correctly and you fail to provide any of the readers with a link to this Evidence. I think you did this b/c you yourself don't even know what your talking about, but you want the readers to at least think you do. I however think your full of crap and here's why !

    First, the real quote is:

    1. Firearms are always loaded - Always assume that a firearm is loaded. Until you've checked it yourself then it is loaded. Period. If you treat every gun that you encounter as if it's always loaded then you're much less likely to have an "accident". It doesn't matter if the guy that's handing it to you just checked it himself. It's loaded until you have personally verified that it's not. Even if it's not you should still handle it as if it is.

    Found Here = http://theurbansurvivalist.blogspot....ms-safety.html

    As we can CLEARY see, you did a Fantastic Hypocritical job at the very same thing your claiming he did. DUMBING DOWN the Real Rule. Then you make the prideful claim that you yourself decided to ADD something to make it better. Which we can cleary see, you didn't add b/c it's already there. Nice Try !



    7: As we can clearly see my Friend, It is you who has not been able to as you say, "intellectually grasp the real rule and you had to simplify it so much that it became a lie"

    Your entire argument is saying that we should NOT treat every weapon as if it were loaded.

    Are you serious ?

    By that Logic, when you unload your pistol, do you then play GI Joe with it, and point it at your friends ? No of course you don't !

    So why would you bring that Hostile comment in a Louisiana Thread, with a Derogatory tone saying, "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded, UNTIL you know that it is not.

    UNTIL ? Then What ? Then it's OK to Not treat it as it were loaded ? You treat it as it were loaded by never pointing it at anything you don't intend to shoot. Whether or Not it's loaded.



    You see by your logic, your implying that once you verify it's unloaded, you can do what you want with it. WRONG !



    Here's a Few Lessons you should read over and practice, they might save your life one day. I live by them them my entire time in the Service, and still do today.







    Safe handling of the rifle or pistol is critical. If proper weapons handling procedures are not used, a Marine risks his safety and the safety of his fellow Marines. During combat, a Marine must react quickly, safely, and be mentally prepared to engage targets. To ensure that only the intended target is engaged, a Marine must apply the following safety rules at all times:




    Rule 1 - Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.

    When a Marine takes charge of a rifle in any situation, he must treat the weapon as if it were loaded, determine its condition, and continue applying the other safety rules.

    Rule 2 - Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.

    A Marine must maintain muzzle awareness at all times.

    Rule 3 - Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

    A target must be identified before taking the weapon off safe and moving the finger to the trigger.


    Rule 4 - Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

    A target must be identified before taking the weapon off safe. This rule is intended to eliminate the chance of the weapon discharging by accident (e.g., brush snagging the

    trigger).






    Thanks for your advice friend, but I'd prefer if you left this type of bad advice OUT of the Louisiana Thread.
    Thanks


    Peace, Thru Superior FirePower !












  11. #11
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Boy, I don’t know what crawled up your ass but it didn’t make you any smarter that’s for sure. At no point did I say

    "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded" is the dumbing down of the Rule
    My objection was to the post that said:

    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.
    [/quote]

    I object to that statement that "all guns are always loaded" because all guns are not always loaded because if they were we wouldn’t clean, admire, show, or dry-fire them. Would you dry-fire a loaded gun? Would you clean a loaded gun? Would your gun store put loaded guns in their display? Are you serious? By saying the rule is “all guns are always loaded” you are breaking the rule when you dry-fire or clean them!

    I even quoted the portion to which I had an objection. Did you miss it? It’s in the quote box at the beginning of my post. Look up a little bit there…see it Einstein?

    As for the rest of your nonsensical and barely literate post, it demonstrates your lack of reading skills, since you basically reiterated what I said.

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    You can say what you want, the bottom line is you completely disagreed with him, then said that thinking that way leads to trouble, then you stated the way he should think which was BS.

    You obvioulsy don't remember what you wrote. Or you didn't mean what you wrote.

    He gave an example of "Treating Every Weapon as if it were loaded", and you Disagreed with that example, and then claimed it to be a cause for why the Kid shot himself in the first place AND you called His thinking to be the "Dumbing Down" of the Real Rules.

    In those Real Rules it completely contradicts what you said it did anyway.

    So what are you trying to say now ?

    Although you've said it Twice Now. You Disagree withtreating every weapon as if it were loaded.

    So it's you whois incapable of seeing an analogy and how it applied to his logic, not me. I know exactly what he was talking about.








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    Is the giant text really necessary, most modern web browsers have a zoom feature if you have trouble reading it.

    I dry fire because I can't afford 1000 rounds of .45 ACP every week and I want to work on my trigger control. Guess what, I also practice drawing from my holster, but I guess you never do that either because you treat your guns like they're always loaded. Also if I seriously always treated my guns like they were loaded, I would never show them to anybody unless we're at a range and they're about to shoot. Oh, I'm also be curious as to how you field strip and clean your guns if you treat them like they're always loaded.

    The always loaded rule is BS. The rule that matters is to never point it at a living thing you're not willing to shoot. This rule as I teach it is living thing, because I'm not truely willing to destroy my wall when I dry fire at it, but it is not a living thing so once I have fully verified that it is not loaded, I can dry fire. Treat the gun as if it is loaded until you have personally seen and felt with your fingers that it is not, and if it leaves your hand, start over and check again.

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    Ok I agree with that, But you've taken the rule OUT of context. We referring to Treating it as if it were loaded, as in Where your pointing it !

    Had this guy treated the weapon like it was loaded, he would have never been able to shoot himself.

    Dry Firing in your house, is your own rule. If you need help with trigger control, than of course that's your choice.

    I have kids, so I'm not going to let them see daddy pulling the trigger on a weapon INSIDE the house. Sorry not going to happen.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Dustin wrote:
    You can say what you want, the bottom line is you completely disagreed with him, then said that thinking that way leads to trouble, then you stated the way he should think which was BS.

    You obvioulsy don't remember what you wrote. Or you didn't mean what you wrote.

    He gave an example of "Treating Every Weapon as if it were loaded", and you Disagreed with that example, and then claimed it to be a cause for why the Kid shot himself in the first place AND you called His thinking to be the "Dumbing Down" of the Real Rules.

    In those Real Rules it completely contradicts what you said it did anyway.

    So what are you trying to say now ?

    Although you've said it Twice Now. You Disagree withtreating every weapon as if it were loaded.

    So it's you whois incapable of seeing an analogy and how it applied to his logic, not me. I know exactly what he was talking about.
    Whew, let me see if I can bring this down to the third grade level for you. Here’s his entire post without the big red letters:

    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.

    If you ALWAYS treat the gun as if it is loaded even when you KNOW that is is unloaded, if you do have a NEGLIGENT discharge, it should be in a safe direction.
    I don’t see anything anywhere in that post where he gives an example of anything. Please highlight where you see one. Here’s the Four Rules of Firearms Safety:


    1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).
    4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.
    OK, now lets see if we can un-bunch your panties. When one simplifies rule 1 to “all guns are always loaded” they demonstrate that they do not follow the rule when they dry-fire (or clean etc) their gun. When you demonstrate that you preach the rule but do not follow the rule you set up a condition of indifference. Imagine trying to teach your children that smoking is bad while there’s a cigarette dangling from your lip. You aren’t teaching them that smoking is bad; you’re teaching them that you’re a hypocrite.

    The statement “all guns are always loaded” is an absolute statement, in other words, there are no exceptions to that rule. If you make an exception to a rule that doesn’t have an exception, you are demonstrating the rule is a lie.

    Although you've said it Twice Now. You Disagree withtreating every weapon as if it were loaded.
    I have not even once disagreed with “treating every weapon as if it were loaded”; I disagreed with the idea that “all guns are always loaded”. Nothing has changed from the first post, everything has been consistent.

    Somewhere along the way people started saying that Rule 1 was: “All guns are always loaded”. This is a bastardization of the true Rule 1 which is “All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not)”. Rule 2 takes care of keeping it pointed in a safe direction whether it’s loaded or not.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Whew, let me see if I can bring this down to the third grade level for you. Here’s his entire post without the big red letters:

    Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    All guns are loaded, even after you have checked them to ensure that they aren't loaded, even after you have double checked them to ensure that they are unloaded, and even after you have triple checked then to ensure that they are unloaded.


    If you ALWAYS treat the gun as if it is loaded even when you KNOW that is is unloaded, if you do have a NEGLIGENT discharge, it should be in a safe direction.
    I don’t see anything anywhere in that post where he gives an example of anything. Please highlight where you see one. Here’s the Four Rules of Firearms Safety:


    1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).
    4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.
    OK, now lets see if we can un-bunch your panties. When one simplifies rule 1 to “all guns are always loaded” they demonstrate that they do not follow the rule when they dry-fire (or clean etc) their gun. When you demonstrate that you preach the rule but do not follow the rule you set up a condition of indifference. Imagine trying to teach your children that smoking is bad while there’s a cigarette dangling from your lip. You aren’t teaching them that smoking is bad; you’re teaching them that you’re a hypocrite.

    The statement “all guns are always loaded” is an absolute statement, in other words, there are no exceptions to that rule. If you make an exception to a rule that doesn’t have an exception, you are demonstrating the rule is a lie.

    Although you've said it Twice Now. You Disagree withtreating every weapon as if it were loaded.
    I have not even once disagreed with “treating every weapon as if it were loaded”; I disagreed with the idea that “all guns are always loaded”. Nothing has changed from the first post, everything has been consistent.

    Somewhere along the way people started saying that Rule 1 was: “All guns are always loaded”. This is a bastardization of the true Rule 1 which is “All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not)”. Rule 2 takes care of keeping it pointed in a safe direction whether it’s loaded or not.
    Are you even Serious ?

    You telling me that you actualy think, that by making the statement "Treat Every Weapon as if it were Loaded" actually makes it impossible to clean your weapon ?

    BTW, Attempting to insult my intelligence will not help you with yours.

    I can't believe you would even dare compare my level of thinking to a childs, b/c You can't seem to understand what I'm saying.

    Let's review.

    Guy makes post about a man shooting himself.

    Guy says accidents happen, no matter what you think you know.

    Guy says Negligence happens when you forget the basics.

    Then Guy gives a simple analogy about the WELL known and Well Obeyed safety rule"treating every weapon as if it were loaded."

    THEN YOU, butt in and Ridicule this guys Safety Rule by saying,

    This is another case of saying something that sounds good because it sounds good, not because it has any substance. It is the dumbing-down of the real firearms rules that contributes to these NDs.

    Then go on your fairy dance an introduce YOUR supposed "REAL" Safety Rule. That you completely misquoted stating:

    "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded, "UNTIL" you verify that it's not."

    I said that your supposed "REAL" rule is BS and had to have the word, "UNTIL" thrown in there in order for morons to figure out how to clean there weapon while still acting as if it were loaded.

    If you realy want to learn the "REAL" Safety Rules perhaps you should learn some History. The First set were put fourth by Colonel Jeff CooperLook it up !

    His First 4 were:

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Always be sure of your target.

    Now I know it must take some Brain Frying thinking on your part, to try and figure out how your going to clean your weapon and treat it as if it were loaded, but don't be afraid, Millions of people do it daily.

    So Yes Again Captain Obvious, We are aware that our weapons are indeed NOT ALWAYS loaded .

    The Analogy of thinking, that "All Weapons are Loaded" is NO DIFFERENT, than thinking in the mindset of "Treating every weapon as if it were loaded."

    Your kind had to add the word, "UNTIL" in there, so that you could SIMPLIFY it to a 3rd Grade Level of understanding, (As you like to say) so that you will be able to comprehend the analogy of the rule.

    Sorry for over judging your ability to decipher simple analogies.













  17. #17
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    I think this topic has went as far as it is going to go.

    Suffice it to say that we all need to be focused on safety at all times!



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