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Thread: New Guy - Carry Questions

  1. #1
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    I want to start by thanking everyone for your experiences and advice. i've read the forums alot but never posted. Here goes.

    I'm an EMT in utah and i live in WV (i'll have to hit the OC dinners around here)

    I carry a "jump kit" that contains all the stuff necessary to help those in need, i feel since i have the training I should always help. I expanded my kit by adding some "emergency survival" things such as an MRE, some water packs, and long term energy/ration bars, etc. all of this is in a military butt pack and mil EMS kit strapped together. they are digital desrt camo. i found that i could fit my gear in those better than my standard med bags.

    now for the real questions, i want to carry my P22 in the bag. the bag is always with me (in the car i drove or in my wifes or friends cars in the trunk) would it be ok to do so as long as its in a retention holster? with or without clip? no round chambered.

    would this make it a "concealed" weapon once its in the car? i know its been posted before, but i dont feel comfortable with a gun on my dash or on the passenger seat. i drive a 2 seater targa top so i feel its too easy to reach in. i dont know the technicalities of the gun being in the back vs under a seat vs in the center console.
    Once i take the bag out of the car it makes it a CW?

    I do not YET have a CCW permit. I plan to buy a Glock 23 soon to carry concealed but until i save up enough money i wanted to stay a law abiding citizen.
    And if its NOT in my jump kit, whats the best way to O carry in vehicle besides the dash or seat?

    Thanks for taking the time to read and offer your input. I hope never to meet any of you when I have my Jump Kit in hand


    P.S. I've asked questions like this to several LEO or ex LEOs that i know and none of them even know about OC laws, i thank all of you for making them aware so that we may OC without harrasment.

  2. #2
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    Welcome.

    IANAL, YMMV, and other assorted disclaimers.

    With that, so long as the gun is INSIDE a fully ziped compartment and is NOT loaded (per Utah code) it is NOT considered "concealed." There is some question about whether putting the "case" inside a glove box or center console would then make it concealed. But certainly in a trunk, or behind the seat is ok. Just be sure the zipper or clasp or tie, or whatever it is that keeps the firearm inside the "case" is fully done up. It need NOT be locked. A holster of any sort is not going to qualify as securing encased. But if you want to put the gun in a holster, and then put the hold thing inside a zippered pouch you should be fine.

    You CAN have a fully charged magazine in the firearm so long as there is no live round in the chamber.


    From 76-10-501 (note the leading portion of the URL and bookmark it <http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050100.htm>.

    (2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    (b) A dangerous weapon shall not be considered a concealed dangerous weapon if it is a firearm which is unloaded and is securely encased.

    ...

    (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.


    <http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050200.htm>

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

    So, no round in the chamber, and a full magazine is ok as it takes TWO actions (racking the slide and then pulling the trigger) to fire the gun.

    After all this, if at all possible, I highly recommend obtaining a Utah firearms carry permit as soon as possible. It avoids all such questions and allows legal carry in school zones. It also allows legal concealed carry in 30+ other States.

    Charles

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  3. #3
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    +1 on getting the permit - it will allow you to carry much more "freely" and help you avoid getting caught in sticky situations (especially if you conceal the weapon).

    Also, where did you get the packs and what exactly is in each one. I am an EMT and would like to do something similar without breaking the bank as it were. Could you list out the contents of each pack and perhaps attach a few pictures?

    Thanks in advance!

  4. #4
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    thanks for your suggestions and help. so even if i remove it from the car INSIDE the one of the bags and its CLOSED and held inside by the zipper its not a "concealed weapon"? sounds like as long as i dont have it on my person and hidden then its not concealed? or would it qualify as "hidden" if its in my jump kit when i get it out to help someone?

    i know when i go to the range i OC or i carry the gun in a case . . . i guess thats not "concealed" but i figure i have perfect justification by being in the "dougs sports" parking lot :P
    i'm just not sure what the law and what a LEO would think of it.

    i didnt want to spend $140-180 for a thomas aeromed pack either they're nice but you just cant fit enough and the price makes me sick to my stomach. its sad that they're so good and made here in utah! i got a mil spec "medic bag" that trifolds open with 3 zippered pouches and then a "butt pack" that holds the rest of the big stuff. they are MOLLE 'd together.
    Honestly, just get yourself a cheap backpack that has lots of compartments. its the best way to go. the reson for mine is to hold more emergency stuff that I might need in case of a natural disaster and/or when i go backpacking or go save a stranded friend on the mountain. these packs are easy to attatch to my hiking packs, otherwise i would have gone with the big packpack solution.
    another idea is a big duffelbag (cheap) with a trunk organizer inside it. thats what i had going for a long time and i think it was the neatest and most organized way to get everything. also get your supplies from stat medical (way cheap prices) or from hospitals or agencies whilling to restock you a little

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    alex1b wrote:
    P.S. I've asked questions like this to several LEO or ex LEOs that i know and none of them even know about OC laws, i thank all of you for making them aware so that we may OC without harrasment.
    I just put a letter into WVCPD today so hopefully the cop "I'm better then you" mentallity will go away soon.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
    Lone Eagle Observer (http://www.charlesahall.us)
    Facebook Page || http://twitter.com/CharlesAHall

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    With that, so long as the gun is INSIDE a fully ziped compartment and is NOT loaded (per Utah code) it is NOT considered "concealed." There is some question about whether putting the "case" inside a glove box or center console would then make it concealed. But certainly in a trunk, or behind the seat is ok. Just be sure the zipper or clasp or tie, or whatever it is that keeps the firearm inside the "case" is fully done up. It need NOT be locked. A holster of any sort is not going to qualify as securing encased. But if you want to put the gun in a holster, and then put the hold thing inside a zippered pouch you should be fine.
    What about a fully zipped fanny pack without a CFP? This sounds the same to me.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    With that, so long as the gun is INSIDE a fully ziped compartment and is NOT loaded (per Utah code) it is NOT considered "concealed." There is some question about whether putting the "case" inside a glove box or center console would then make it concealed. But certainly in a trunk, or behind the seat is ok. Just be sure the zipper or clasp or tie, or whatever it is that keeps the firearm inside the "case" is fully done up. It need NOT be locked. A holster of any sort is not going to qualify as securing encased. But if you want to put the gun in a holster, and then put the hold thing inside a zippered pouch you should be fine.
    What about a fully zipped fanny pack without a CFP? This sounds the same to me.
    thats what i was thinking after i wrote it.

    so its ok to carry that way in the car asuming it doesnt leave the vehicle like that?


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    alex1b wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    utbagpiper wrote:
    With that, so long as the gun is INSIDE a fully ziped compartment and is NOT loaded (per Utah code) it is NOT considered "concealed." There is some question about whether putting the "case" inside a glove box or center console would then make it concealed. But certainly in a trunk, or behind the seat is ok. Just be sure the zipper or clasp or tie, or whatever it is that keeps the firearm inside the "case" is fully done up. It need NOT be locked. A holster of any sort is not going to qualify as securing encased. But if you want to put the gun in a holster, and then put the hold thing inside a zippered pouch you should be fine.
    What about a fully zipped fanny pack without a CFP? This sounds the same to me.
    thats what i was thinking after i wrote it.

    so its ok to carry that way in the car asuming it doesnt leave the vehicle like that?
    By my reading -- good point SGT Jensen -- you can carry a "Utah-unloaded" firearm in a zippered fanny pack inside or outside a vehicle. No CFP required. Steer clear of school zones, though.

    This is similar to the "loophole" that I've read Illinois residents are using. Of course, Illinois does not issue or honor any CFP, but the law allows carry of a securely encased firearm that is unloaded (really unloaded, not Utah-unloaded). So in Illinois -- according to this legal theory -- you can carry a gun and loaded mags in a zipped fanny pack, as long as the magazine well and chamber are empty.

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    wait, so are we saying it IS ok to run around with a bag zippered (that section is actually 2 "quick releases" like the kinds on backpacks) utah-unloaded (full mag in gun, nothing in the chamber) out on the streets?

    both in and out of vehicle, no school zones (1000 feet), no restricted buildings?

    if so, would the U of U be ok with "open carry" securely enclosed in backpacks WITHOUT a CFP?

    i just want to get all this clear because i'm not sure if its pushing it WAY to far. I dont want to cause unecessary police encounters since I'll be working with LEO's all the time.

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    alex1b wrote:
    wait, so are we saying it IS ok to run around with a bag zippered (that section is actually 2 "quick releases" like the kinds on backpacks) utah-unloaded (full mag in gun, nothing in the chamber) out on the streets?

    both in and out of vehicle, no school zones (1000 feet), no restricted buildings?

    if so, would the U of U be ok with "open carry" securely enclosed in backpacks WITHOUT a CFP?

    i just want to get all this clear because i'm not sure if its pushing it WAY to far. I dont want to cause unecessary police encounters since I'll be working with LEO's all the time.
    Steer clear of the U of U without a permit... 1000 feet counts for institutes of higher education as well.

  11. #11
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    ok, so the universities/colleges apply? what about everything else in my previous post?
    i havent been able to find this info anywhere, i'm hoping you guys are smarter than LEOs and the internet (i already know you are)

  12. #12
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    alex1b wrote:
    wait, so are we saying it IS ok to run around with a bag zippered (that section is actually 2 "quick releases" like the kinds on backpacks) utah-unloaded (full mag in gun, nothing in the chamber) out on the streets?

    both in and out of vehicle, no school zones (1000 feet), no restricted buildings?

    if so, would the U of U be ok with "open carry" securely enclosed in backpacks WITHOUT a CFP?

    i just want to get all this clear because i'm not sure if its pushing it WAY to far. I dont want to cause unecessary police encounters since I'll be working with LEO's all the time.
    It appears to me that an unloaded gun carried in a zippered bag would not be considered a "concealed dangerous weapon", and that you wouldn't be prosecutable under 76-10-503.

    As for the U of U -- per Utah state law that IS a school zone, so carry without a CFP is illegal, no matter how enclosed. State law does specifically allow a securely-encased, unloaded weapon to be in your vehicle in a school zone. (Federal law requires that it be in a locked case, not just "securely encased", but that's only for the federal definition of "school", which doesn't include post-secondary schools).

    I'd be very careful about walking around town with a Utah-unloaded gun in a fanny pack or backpack, though. The police will almost certainly consider it "concealed", and if the DA and judge do as well, you could have a very rough time on your hands.

  13. #13
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    mostly i want to keep it in my jump kit because its always near me. mostly in my vehicle or at my house.
    and in either scenario i'm safe, i just wondered if i should take the time to remove it and leave it in the trunk before i grab my bag to go help someone . . . i might forget with all the excitement and i dont want to have to worry about it if its not a huge issue.
    its not a "man purse" by any means, its not going inside stores or on a walk but in an emergency i could send my wife to get it from the car while i do CPR or something. and i dont want to worry about her or a colse friend messing with a gun when they're in a hurry. in a hurry you forget to lock cars, or leave the gun in the bag on accident.
    i also dont want any trouble when the cops get there to help and i have an unloaded gun in my bag

    i would still appreciate more of your opinions on this, and thanks for your knowledge and advice

  14. #14
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    Do you have any aversion to getting a permit? Having a permit would make this all a lot simpler.

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    the only reason i'm not getting a permit yet is the $$ factor, i'm a rifle guy and just started with handguns. i own a P22 and dont really feel like its a good self defence option. i can place an entire clip (10 rounds) in a very small area consistantly and i carry 3 mags total, so in a way it is good for self defence just not as reliable as a larger caliber handgun.
    i see it as a way to discurage others to cause harm to me or to others and also a tool to get me home safe in a time of local/national crisis.
    that said, its more that i'm saving up to buy a glock first and then spending the money on a permit soon after.

    from what i understand i'll be spending about $150 for a permit/class and i'd rather have the gun first and some time to train with it before i carry it.
    also saves up time to convince my wife good guys should carry guns

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    alex1b wrote:
    the only reason i'm not getting a permit yet is the $$ factor, i'm a rifle guy and just started with handguns.
    There are several CFP instructors in the state who provide classes completely FREE to college students, so the only real cost to getting a CFP is the $67 (IIRC) fee -- assuming you're at least 21, have a clean record, etc.

    $67 is pretty darned cheap to avoid all these hassles and to ensure that you can carry on campus.

  17. #17
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    If you hurry and email Chris at Strategic Tactical, you could probably get in on a free CFP class he is holding. More information here. This is the best deal you will get and it will only cost you the $65 for state/federal fees. The other thing to think about is that it takes about 7 weeks from when you submit your paperwork to when your permit arrives, so you have to factor in that two months as well. Try and get aboard this class and get your permit ASAP. It will give you the ability to carry your P22 concealed and fully loaded on the U campus, and you won't have to worry about working around LEOs. Let me know if you have any other Qs.

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    that is cheap, i may have to change the plan and do that first. i dont go to the U yet. i'm at slcc right now and i know its against policy to carry dangerous weapons.

    but i wouldnt mind taking the class and getting it done. maybe i'll do that and work my way into a G23.
    its lame to only carry a P22

    i saw that post but i have a camping trip this weekend . . . i OC'd last weekend when i went backpacking, it was my first OC experience and other hikers were nice and friendly. half of them were OC too

    any other free classes in the near future? i didnt see any more

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    I don't have my permit, and the way I carry when I'm not OC'ing is inside a small container inside my backpack... That way there is no question about it being in a container as per Utah law, but it is still close by. The container need not be elaborate, it can be a tupperware if you want.

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    i saw a "zippered bag" or something like that at walmart tonight right next to the check stands. i thought it would be funny to bring up because its perfect. looks like a pencil bag and its even waterproof fabric! :P

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    alex1b wrote:
    that is cheap, i may have to change the plan and do that first. i dont go to the U yet. i'm at slcc right now and i know its against policy to carry dangerous weapons.
    SLCC is a state school and can't set any policy more restrictive than state law, just like the U. This means the rules are identical at both. CC and OC are both illegal on campus without a permit. Both are legal with a permit, although I think both institutions will try to hassle you over OC.

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    yeah, i wouldnt OC on campus. doesnt seem like a good academic move for me. and in my opinion would be irresponsible because of the comotion it may cause.
    i know they cant permit me from it but they could ask me to attend a different school

    i'll see if i can get into one of the free classes soon then. now that i own a handgun, even a .22 it would be much easier and safer for me to have a permit. we live in a great state, i dont see a reason not to

    i feel better that the gun can stay in my bag as long as its in the car for now. thanks for your help there.

    i've always worried a gun might be hard to conceal since i'm an average sized guy and i never wear loose clothes. i wish there was a way to test drive different sizes of frames to see if its not too much hassle.

    what do you guys think of the G23? good size?

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    alex1b wrote:
    any other free classes in the near future? i didnt see any more
    Oh, missed this.

    Larry Correia of Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns (gun shop in Draper) offers free classes to college students, and I'm pretty sure Clark Aposhian does as well. I seem to recall some other CFP instructors making the same offer, but I don't recall their names.

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  25. #25
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    i'll have to track them down and see when they offer the next class

    also see -- previous post
    Last edited on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 01:10 am by alex1b

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