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FOIA request denied by Fairfax PD

Sheriff

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peter nap wrote:
I don't think he had the right to run the serial number assuming he did.
Fishing expedition. They hope it comes back stolen.

They do it all the time. :)
 

Sheriff

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peter nap wrote:
Playing the "It's a jungle out there" card gets a little annoying after a while.
I agree with you 100%.


Police work is not even in the top 10 of the most dangerous professions.

In the top 10 you will find airline pilots, lumberjacks, deep sea fishermen, truck drivers, etc...
 

MeBaby

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I don't hate you Miss CLEO :D. I know you have a tough job and that a high percentageof the people you deal with are people who might want to harm you, but I also don't want to see you jaded by that.

By the way....you sure do shut down threads at the first sign of negative feedback, though, :shock:. Seems to me I remember you complaining a few times (before you were a moderator) about threads being shut down too quickly. But my memory could be wrong.
 

sjhipple

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LEO 229 wrote:
What did you hope to gain from the information you requested anyway?

You were actually lucky that you received a warning ticket for your traffic violation.

This is the only documentation that would have been done anyway. Running the serial number on your gun has no documentation and I doubt there would have been any radio traffic you would find interesting.

How do you know he ran it anyway?


None of my rights were violated during the stop that I know of, so I'm not looking for it for that reason. I filed the FOIA because (a) I'm curious to see how exactly things happened so that I can respond better in the future and (b) I like to have a record of these types of things. I don't need it to file a complaint or anything like that, although I may write Officer Cerna a personal letter.

Yes, it was nice of him to give me a warning, although from my POV, I don't know what I could've done differently. Driving in Northern Virginia is tough to say the least. I'm a very conscientious driver, always use my signal, etc, but that seems to work against you with the aggressive drivers around here. That's neither here nor there. I did really appreciate him listening to my explanation and giving me a warning.

I don't actually know he ran the serial #. I assume he did. I'm not too concerned about it.

I'm surprised the FOIA was turned down though, especially just for a routine traffic stop. I'm still reveiwing my options to see how I can appeal the decision (writ of mandamus is the next step I believe).
 

Sheriff

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LEO 229 wrote:
No we don't
Maybe not where you live and work, but in the area I live in, they most certainly do. Every person is guilty until proven innocent. This includes a gun.... it's stolen until the cop determines it's not. :)

There is no such thing as being "innocent" in Northern Virginia. Wasn't long ago a police captain in Alexandria said "so and so was in town, so and so committed this crime!" He never used the words "alleged" or "suspect" in his press release. And he is sued for $4 million dollars right now.
 

Sheriff

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sjhipple wrote:
I don't actually know he ran the serial #. I assume he did. I'm not too concerned about it.


I am a betting man. I am willing to bet $100 he did run the serial number. :lol:
 

Neplusultra

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LEO 229 wrote:
If you want proof that motorists shoot cops with guns they have in their car... watch the following video.
For what it's worth this is one of the reasons I decided to start carrying. Watching cop shows and seeing all the videos of them getting shot or shot at during traffic stops. I decided that if I ever came across something like this video I wanted to be able to do something. DAMN! Watching stuff like this makes me hot!

Now, back to the debate on what a LEO should or shouldn't be allowed to do...... :)
 

Sheriff

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Neplusultra wrote:
Now, back to the debate on what a LEO should or shouldn't be allowed to do...... :)
That's not a debate. It's only opinions when posted here. :)

Courts interpet the law and decide what a LEO can or can't do, usually after the fact.
 

LEO 229

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Sheriff wrote:
sjhipple wrote:
I don't actually know he ran the serial #. I assume he did. I'm not too concerned about it.


I am a betting man. I am willing to bet $100 he did run the serial number. :lol:
If I had his name... I could probably ask him.... then you could owe me $100 :lol:
 

sjhipple

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LEO 229 wrote:
Sheriff wrote:
sjhipple wrote:
I don't actually know he ran the serial #. I assume he did. I'm not too concerned about it.


I am a betting man. I am willing to bet $100 he did run the serial number. :lol:
If I had his name... I could probably ask him.... then you could owe me $100 :lol:

Officer Cerna.

Any idea on how these FOIA things work, LEO?
 

LEO 229

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sjhipple wrote:
None of my rights were violated during the stop that I know of, so I'm not looking for it for that reason. I filed the FOIA because (a) I'm curious to see how exactly things happened so that I can respond better in the future and (b) I like to have a record of these types of things. I don't need it to file a complaint or anything like that, although I may write Officer Cerna a personal letter.

Yes, it was nice of him to give me a warning, although from my POV, I don't know what I could've done differently. Driving in Northern Virginia is tough to say the least. I'm a very conscientious driver, always use my signal, etc, but that seems to work against you with the aggressive drivers around here. That's neither here nor there. I did really appreciate him listening to my explanation and giving me a warning.

I don't actually know he ran the serial #. I assume he did. I'm not too concerned about it.

I'm surprised the FOIA was turned down though, especially just for a routine traffic stop. I'm still reveiwing my options to see how I can appeal the decision (writ of mandamus is the next step I believe).

Thanks for the clarification.

You cannot run the SN from the car as this must be done on another VCIN machine at the station. This is a machine that has far greater access to the state database system

The computer in the car does DMV checks, stolen cars, and wanted people. Criminal history and stolen property CANNOT be done there.

So he would need to actually call someone and this is a little more effort. So it is not like.... while I am sitting here I will run it for kicks.

Not saying he did not do it.... ;)

AU-Turn can only be done at an intersection. I am guessing you did it in some other location? :lol:
 

sjhipple

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LEO 229 wrote:
AU-Turn can only be done at an intersection. I am guessing you did it in some other location? :lol:

It actually wasn't a U-Turn, but good guess. Here's what happened.

I was at a stop light in the left lane. To the left of me is the left turning lane. As I approached the stop light, I turned on my signal to get into the turning lane. I had at least 2 car lengths of space with which to make the turn,but the car floors it so that I can't get in (did I mention how much I hate driving in Northern Virginia?). I pull up to the light, stop,and turn on my turn signal again, a different car (not the same car that sped up when I turned on my signal before) then starts to creep forward so as not to allow me in. I'm irritated and just go anyway, mostly because I have no idea where I am and am trying to turn around. I get my bumper just in front of his and wait till the light changes. He honks his horn at me....and then turns on his lights :D. It was an unmarked police car.

My supposed improper turn was trying to get into the turning lane. Again, I appreciate that he gave me a warning.
 

LEO 229

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sjhipple wrote:
It actually wasn't a U-Turn, but good guess. Here's what happened.

.....Snipped
Ahh.. My Bad.. ;) I read your first post again... For some reason I had it in my head it was a U-Turn.
 

swillden

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sjhipple wrote:
As I approached the stop light, I turned on my signal to get into the turning lane.
Sounds like No VA is like Utah. The key is to stop telegraphing your moves with those turn signal thingies.

;)
 

Citizen

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LEO 229 wrote:
apjonas wrote:
Well, how about Terry itself?
We merely hold today that where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where in the course of investigating this behavior he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him.
SNIP What exactly is your question? This is a traffic stop that deals with disarming a motorist during the stop.

Let's shift over to a lesser known ruling... Michigan v Long where the officer can search the passenger area of the vehicle to check for weapons.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0463_1032_ZS.html

"Nor did they act unreasonably in taking preventive measures to ensure that there were no other weapons within respondent's immediate grasp before permitting him to reenter his automobile. The fact that respondent was under the officers' control during the investigative stop does not render unreasonable their belief that he could injure them."
Forum members should read the entire court opinion linked above. The Supreme Court said, in pertinent part:

Our past cases indicate, then, that protection of police and others can justify protective searches when police have a reasonable belief that the suspect poses a danger, that roadside encounters between police and suspects are especially hazardous, and that danger may arise from the possible presence of weapons in the area surrounding a suspect. These principles compel our conclusion that the search of the passenger compartment of an automobile, limited to those areas in which a weapon may be placed or hidden, is permissible if the police officer possesses a reasonable belief based on "specific and articulable facts which, taken together with the rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant" the officer in believing that the suspect is dangerousAND the suspect may gain immediate control of weapons.[suP] [n14][/suP] See Terry, 392 [p1050] U.S. at 21. (all emphasis added)


NOTE: The link in the quoted post above takes you to a syllabus of the opinion. Not the opinion itself. At the top of the syllabus page there are links to the actual opinion itself in html and pdf. I think the protective search part of the opinion begins in section III.

It seems the quoted poster pulled his quote from the syllabus, which to my knowledge carries no legal weight.

Also, the poster's quote omits important information--the sentence in the syllabus immediately preceding the quote. I'll include it here with the first sentence of thequote:

The circumstances of this case justified the officers in their reasonable belief that respondent posed a danger if he were permitted to reenter his vehicle. Nor did they act unreasonably in taking preventive measures to ensure that there were no other weapons within respondent's immediate grasp before permitting him to reenter his automobile. (emphasis added)

I consider that presenting the Court's opinion in a way that misrepresents their views undermines them. Its one thing to criticize them when they get it wrong. Its something else to give people the impression that they got it wrong when they actually got it fairly right. On the exact point under discussion in this exact case, I believe they have a fairly good handle on the subject, balancing rights with protecting police.
 

BobCav

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Sheriff wrote:
peter nap wrote:
Playing the "It's a jungle out there" card gets a little annoying after a while.
I agree with you 100%.


Police work is not even in the top 10 of the most dangerous professions.

In the top 10 you will find airline pilots, lumberjacks, deep sea fishermen, truck drivers, etc...


Correctamundo. Courtesy CNN and the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/01/08/cb.danger/index.html

Most life-threatening jobs
According to BLS data, the following jobs had some of the highest fatality rates for 2005:


Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 118.4
Average salary: $29,000 per year


Logging workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 92.9
Average salary: $31,290 per year


Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 66.9
Average salary: $135,040

Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 55.6
Average salary: $43,540

Refuse and recyclable material collectors
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 43.8
Average salary: $30,160

Farmers and ranchers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 41.1
Average salary: $39,720

Electrical power-line installers and repairers

Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 32.7
Average salary: $49,200

Truck drivers

Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 29.1
Average salary: $35,460 (for heavy or tractor-trailer drivers)

Miscellaneous agricultural workers

Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 23.2
Average salary: $24,140

Construction laborers

Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 22.7
Average salary: $29,050
 

Citizen

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BobCav wrote:
SNIP Correctamundo. Courtesy CNN and the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/01/08/cb.danger/index.html

Most life-threatening jobs
According to BLS data, the following jobs had some of the highest fatality rates for 2005:

Holy smoke!!

That would mean if you are a pilot's passenger, you are riding with a guy who is in the third most dangerous profession while he is practicing his profession!!! :)

Which would also mean you're safer riding with a police officer than flying!!! :)

CATO!! Come pick me up! I don't wanta fly to California. I want you to drive me!
 

Sheriff

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Thanks for importing the list BobCav.

I get so tired of seeing cops whine about their jobs being so dangerous.
 

LEO 229

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Sheriff wrote:
Thanks for importing the list BobCav.

I get so tired of seeing cops whine about their jobs being so dangerous.
I get so tired of people who pretend to be aformer law enforcement. :lol:

The jobs listedare absolutely the most dangerous out there. And that is because their job ispretty much the samedangerous task all day long.

A cops job is like many other jobs.Dangerous during a specific event. In this case...when he is on a traffic stop or ona call. Otherwise.... sitting in a carand driving in traffic is only as dangerous as it is to be in a motorist.

So please do not try to down play things....Each job has its specific dangers. Trash collectors are hit by cars, pilots die in crashes, power-line workersare electrocuted, fisherman drown, cops are shot, stabbed, hit by cars,and die in vehicle crashes.

But it seems that Sheriff is the one that actually brought it up so he could twist the topic and Bob played right into his hands. I was only pointing out why officers need to maintain a safe environment when dealing with armed people and what could happen.

In no way did I say that it was THE most dangerous job. In any job... fishing, construction, and what not.... you do what you can to limit your exposure to certain death. Just because you job is not HIGH on the list is no reason to become complacent.
 
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