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Thread: Clarification

  1. #1
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    A friend and myself are planning a camping trip this summer---hike in, camp a couple nights and hike out---but would like some bear defense. We're both over 18, but niether of us are 21 yet; the defense we are likely limited to is a rifle and a 9mm handgun. (I know handguns probably aren't the best for warding off bears, but its better than nothing right?)

    I'm looking for some clarification of the posession laws with regard to this limbo age I'm stuck in right now. Though RCW 9.41.060 states, "Any Person" engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity, including hiking and camping, may carry a firearm...:

    Is this limited to rifles in my case?
    Must I open carry, or is concealed permitted?

    I'm absolutely comfortable with carrying the rifle, I'm sure I'll have it with me, but possesion of a handgun makes me a little more nervous. Any advice and/or comments or information regarding other pertinent laws would be appreciated.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    I can't say for sure on most of it, but I can tell you right now that concealing it is NOT LEGAL unless you have a valid CPL. Since you aren't 21 yet, you likely don't have a valid CPL (unless you're a resident of a state we have reciprocity with). Don't conceal it and don't put it loaded into a vehicle.

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend 9mm even to scare off the bear, as that would likely just make it angry if you're at the point you need to use it (i.e., it's attacking). If you need to make noise to scare one off, there's much better ways and they make very strong pepper spray bear repellant that I hear is very effective and totally legal for you to own. Plus, it's only $30 for that large can at Sportsman's Guide.

    IANAL.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    You are FAR better off with a can (each) of the EPA approved bear spray! Make sure it is EPA certified. And make sure you practice carryingit and getting it out of the holster. There is a great book out there called "Bear attacks; who survives and why". Good reading even if you weren't going out in the woods.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    I can't say for sure on most of it, but I can tell you right now that concealing it is NOT LEGAL unless you have a valid CPL. Since you aren't 21 yet, you likely don't have a valid CPL (unless you're a resident of a state we have reciprocity with). Don't conceal it and don't put it loaded into a vehicle.

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend 9mm even to scare off the bear, as that would likely just make it angry if you're at the point you need to use it (i.e., it's attacking). If you need to make noise to scare one off, there's much better ways and they make very strong pepper spray bear repellant that I hear is very effective and totally legal for you to own. Plus, it's only $30 for that large can at Sportsman's Guide.

    IANAL.
    Actually there are exceptions to carrying concealed without a CPL

    ie. 9.41.060 (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;


    but you then you have this

    Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:

    (1) In the person's place of abode;

    (2) At the person's fixed place of business; or

    (3) On real property under his or her control.

    so it looks like you will need to settle for a rifle, You can own and possess a handgun at 18 but only carry it in a couple of areas.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, now that I look at that again you are likely right. Looks likean 18 year oldcan carry a concealed handgun while camping or hiking ect.

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    Still think you will be better off with the spray and making noise on the trail. The more noise you make as you are hiking the better. They can hear you from a long way off and they are not that curious. They tend to turn and go the other way.

    (Experience: Hiking in Glacier National Park every summer for 9 years. Spotted more than 1 bear while on the trail every summer, never had a problem.)

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    NavyLT wrote:
    It would have to be transported in the vehicle going to the site unloaded and in a case.
    9.41.060 (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

    The exception provides for travel, as well.

    I in no way recommend transporting a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL, but it is legal due to the exception listed. It is legal for 18-21 year old handgun owners to carry a concealed pistol on their person while engaged in an outdoor recreational activity or traveling to or from that activity...even without a CPL.

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    I didn’t see where you intend to hike. Remember that for the time being you cannot carry in a National Park openly or concealed. You may carry in the National Forests and Wilderness areas, however, check a map before you leave as many NFS trails lead into the National Parks.

    Do we have any hunters on the board that can comment on hiking with a log gun? I have no idea what the limitations are regarding hunting/poaching and carrying during non-hunting season.

    BTW, “hike in, camp a couple nights and hike out” is backpacking. Camping is when you drive your car or camper somewhere and pretend you’re homeless.


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    Mainsail wrote:
    Do we have any hunters on the board that can comment on hiking with a log gun? I have no idea what the limitations are regarding huntingpoaching and carrying during non-hunting season.
    I have never seen code or hunting regs that prohibit the carrying of long arms in any fashion except for hunting with rifles during archery season. On the other hand, if you're not hunting with the rifle during archery season, but just hiking, I haven't seen a law that prohibits that activity.

    I have hiked with rifles many times without issue, though I realize that is anecdotal rather than law.

    Best,
    Rattler

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    NavyLT wrote:
    True. It would be much easier just to do item 9 in RCW 9.41.060:
    As I mentioned, I personally agree with you. I just wanted to point out for the sake of accuracy that it is legal for him to carry under item 8 in RCW 9.41.060. My personal opinion is not binding on carhark and he should have all the information he needs to make a good decision.

    Regards,
    Rattler

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    The trip will be on Green Mountain in Kitsap County; I know I can carry there. And I'm with you all the way NavyLT, the handgun will definitely be in an opaque case and unloaded in the car, we couldn't afford the off chance that we get pulled over and searched, it would be a huge legal hassle, and the cops are probably worse with exceptions to 9.41.050 than with open carry, especially when it comes to being under 21 and concealed carrying. Thanks for all the input guys, even though you're not lawyers, I do feel a lot more comfortable knowing that you all understand the law in the same way I do.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    Camping is when you drive your car or camper somewhere and pretend you’re homeless.
    ROFLMAO

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    Mainsail wrote:
    BTW, “hike in, camp a couple nights and hike out” is backpacking. Camping is when you drive your car or camper somewhere and pretend you’re homeless.
    Hilarious!!
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    BTW, “hike in, camp a couple nights and hike out” is backpacking. Camping is when you drive your car or camper somewhere and pretend you’re homeless.
    And create lots of empty beer cans for recycling.
    Yeah, like he said, homeless











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    Misguided Child wrote:
    You are FAR better off with a can (each) of the EPA approved bear spray! Make sure it is EPA certified. And make sure you practice carryingit and getting it out of the holster. There is a great book out there called "Bear attacks; who survives and why". Good reading even if you weren't going out in the woods.
    Use bear spray and the bear will thank you for seasoning his dinner for him. Bear spray is as effective as yelling. If the bear's intent is to harm you bear spray will not deter him. 357 Magnum minimum, rocks will be as effective as a 9mm.

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    David.Car wrote:
    Still think you will be better off with the spray and making noise on the trail. The more noise you make as you are hiking the better. They can hear you from a long way off and they are not that curious. They tend to turn and go the other way.

    (Experience: Hiking in Glacier National Park every summer for 9 years. Spotted more than 1 bear while on the trail every summer, never had a problem.)
    You are gonna get someone killed with this kind of advice. If you've never seen a bear charge you wouldn't be saying this. FYI, I've seen a bear charge and by the time bear spray would have been effective the bear would have hit us before it could havetaken effect. Bears charge at 30 to 40 mph, spray is for false charges and never works on a real charge.

    For hiking I always carried a 41 or a 44 Magnum handgun. If I was going the rifle route, a Ruger 44 Carbine would be my first choice, Then a Winchester 94 and then a Marlin1894 in either of the afore mentioned calibers.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    It has been said many times, "if you insist on carrying a handgun for protection against bears be sure to file down the front sight. It won't hurt so bad when the bear stuffs it up your a**."
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    This seems like an appropriate thread for this joke.




    Code:
    A hunter goes into the woods to hunt a bear. He carries his trusty
    .22 rifle with him. After a while, he spots a very large bear,
    takes aim, and fires. When the smoke clears, the bear is gone.
    
    A moment later the bear taps the hunter on the shoulder and says, "No
    one shoots at me and gets away with it. You have two choices: I can
    rip your throat out and eat you, or you can drop your trousers, bend
    over, and I'll do you in the ass."
    
    The hunter decides that anything is better than death, so he drops his
    trousers and bends over, and the bear does what he said he would do.
    After the bear has left, the hunter pulls up his trousers again and
    staggers back into town. He's pretty mad.
    
    He buys a much larger gun and returns to the forest. He sees the same
    bear, aims, and fires. When the smoke clears, the bear is gone. A
    moment later the bear taps the hunter on the shoulder and says,
    
    "You know what to do."
    
    Afterwards, the hunter pulls up his trousers, crawls back into town,
    and buys a bazooka. Now he's really mad. He returns to the forest,
    sees the bear, aims, and fires. The force of the bazooka blast knocks
    him flat on his back. When the smoke clears, the bear is standing over
    him and says,
    
    "You're not doing this for the hunting, are you?"

  19. #19
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    Brown bears, grizzlys, and polar bearsare too big to comfortably be taken w/a handgun. However, the black bear thatfrequent the PNW are rarely bigger than about 250-300lbs. That's well w/in the working area of well loaded .357 or larger handgun. .41 Mag, hot .45 Colt, .44 Mag, .454 Casull, .460 Mag, and .500 Mag are incrementally more powerful and offer a larger degree of black bear protection. Even the 10mm Auto, when loaded to full-power specs, will offer a great amount of protection, and in the G20, you get 16 rounds, alot better firepower than a 6-shot .357 that weighs a pound more.

    But seriously, just get some bear spray and read a book.

  20. #20
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    I don't think I'd bring a 9mm to a bear fight. How big is your rifle?

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    It's a mosin nagant actually, 7.62 X 54R. Which brings me to another question: what kind of ammo should I buy (I have some 1950's bulk bulgarian, but would like something more reliable for defense.) The choices are soft point and FMJ. My guess is FMJ would be much better.

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    carhark wrote:
    It's a mosin nagant actually, 7.62 X 54R. Which brings me to another question: what kind of ammo should I buy (I have some 1950's bulk bulgarian, but would like something more reliable for defense.) The choices are soft point and FMJ. My guess is FMJ would be much better.
    Soft points. They will expand better.

  23. #23
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    carhark wrote:
    It's a mosin nagant actually, 7.62 X 54R. Which brings me to another question: what kind of ammo should I buy (I have some 1950's bulk bulgarian, but would like something more reliable for defense.) The choices are soft point and FMJ. My guess is FMJ would be much better.
    The 7.62X54R is ballistic wise,the same (or close enough) to the 30-06 which is enough for bears or cougars.

  24. #24
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    I Don't know if this wibe site is up todate; www.handgunlaw.us

    but itsays your good to go in WA State?

    Washington
    Must Notify Officer: No

    Wildlife Management Areas/ YES RCW 9.41.300

    State National Forests / YES

    State Parks / YESWAC 35232120

    Road Side Rests / YES

    Im proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    DrewGunner wrote:
    carhark wrote:
    It's a mosin nagant actually, 7.62 X 54R. Which brings me to another question: what kind of ammo should I buy (I have some 1950's bulk bulgarian, but would like something more reliable for defense.) The choices are soft point and FMJ. My guess is FMJ would be much better.
    Soft points. They will expand better.
    +1.

    But, coming from a non-hunter with no practical experience, I would be worried about whether the soft point (even in the 7.62x54R) would penetrate the skull of the Grizzly if it didn't hit nearly straight on (as in, a slight glancing blow). As for black bear, it would be fine, I would think.

    If I had my m91/59 (or even my m91/30) slung on my shoulder, I'd be pretty confident of protection from anything I could come across in WA.

    Though, if I was sure I was going into bear country, I'd definitely bring my m91/30 an upon exiting the vehicle, I'd announce "AFFIX BAYONETS!", likely to the confusion and bemusement of my friends as I add another 16.5 inches (yes, that's exact; it's in my lap) to the length of the rifle. If I have a bear charging me, I don't want to count on being able to make a super-accurate shot on a moving target under that kind of stress and would want the added security of being able to dig the butt of the rifle into the ground and aiming the bayonet into the chest/head area like a pike, slowing it from attacking me while I run.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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