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Thread: Obligated to notify..

  1. #1
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    I ran a search and didn't find what I was looking for.

    Do I have to notify the hostess, waitress etc. that I am carrying when I go out to eat at a restaurant that serves alcohol?

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    No, you don't.

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    No you don't. The only thing you will find in VA code concerning OC in restaurants that serve alcohol is the fact that CCW in restaurants that serve alcohol is prohibited unless you are owner or an employee with permission.

    The law makes no mention of OC in an alcohol serving establishment so what isn't explicitly illegal is legal.

    Perhaps you are confusing the bill that didn't make it past the Governor's desk this year that would have allowed you to CCW in restaurants only if you notified the staff.

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    phixion wrote:
    I ran a search and didn't find what I was looking for.

    Do I have to notify the hostess, waitress etc. that I am carrying when I go out to eat at a restaurant that serves alcohol?
    Not at all.

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    It is sad the citizens mindset is they must have permission from the government to exercise ther right!

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    hsmith wrote:
    It is sad the citizens mindset is they must have permission from the government to exercise ther right!
    I think in this case the intent was not to violate an existing law.

    But there is no such law and everyone should carry, OC in restaurants that serve alcohol, OC/CC everywhere else, in a "don't ask, don't tell" mode.

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    And I assume that transitioning from CC to OC (using an IWB) is okay as long as the firearm is visible and can be identified as such?

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    18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A.... For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature...

    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    phixion wrote:
    And I assume that transitioning from CC to OC (using an IWB) is okay as long as the firearm is visible and can be identified as such?
    There are at least two concerns here - When you're in the establishment with an on premesis license to serve, make sure you're OC, see 18.2-308 as citizen quoted for the specifics on that. Transitioning between one and the other is a slightly different matter - I understand that transitioning from CC to OC can be considered brandishing even without touching the firearm. Obviously this is dependant on circumstance, with there being noticeable differences between taking off a coat before going indoors vs. pulling it back to reveal a firearm while involved in an altercation.

    See: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    (sorry, don't remember how to link right this second)

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    stryth wrote:
    phixion wrote:
    And I assume that transitioning from CC to OC (using an IWB) is okay as long as the firearm is visible and can be identified as such?
    There are at least two concerns here - When you're in the establishment with an on premesis license to serve, make sure you're OC, see 18.2-308 as citizen quoted for the specifics on that. Transitioning between one and the other is a slightly different matter - I understand that transitioning from CC to OC can be considered brandishing even without touching the firearm. Obviously this is dependant on circumstance, with there being noticeable differences between taking off a coat before going indoors vs. pulling it back to reveal a firearm while involved in an altercation.

    See: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    (sorry, don't remember how to link right this second)
    Simply transitioning from CC to OC for the purpose of entering an establishment isn't brandishing.

    bran·dish

    1.to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish

    2.a flourish or waving, as of a weapon.

    My thoughts are that as long as it stays in the holster it isn't brandishing. Just discretely tuck your shirt over it before you step through the door.

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    I'm sure that the previous post meant to tuck your shirt BEHIND your gun when you transition. Make SURE that you uncover before you touch that door, too. Some of get lax or forget and uncover as we're sitting down. Some day one of us will get popped for that.

    I'm sort of concerned about IWB being a gray area for open carry, though. I don't know of any case in which it has been a problem, but it seems to me that it could go either way. If a street thug has his gun tucked in his pants, it's my opinion that he'd likely be charged with concealing. By that same argument, I would think that you would be, too, in a broad interpretation of what constitutes concealment. When we OC with an OWB holster, holster + handle = gun. With an IWB holster, the holster is concealed. That's why we use them. That leaves the bulk of the gun concealed from common observation, unless you drop trow while you eat. ;-)

    Anyone got any cites on this? I'm going to do a search, but I can't until tomorrow, Saturday.

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    My thoughts are that as long as it stays in the holster it isn't brandishing. Just discretely tuck your shirt over it before you step through the door.
    Not true. You can brandish a gun that you never touch or remove from the holster, or even say the word gun.
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    caltain wrote:
    I'm sure that the previous post meant to tuck your shirt BEHIND your gun when you transition. Make SURE that you uncover before you touch that door, too. Some of get lax or forget and uncover as we're sitting down. Some day one of us will get popped for that.

    I'm sort of concerned about IWB being a gray area for open carry, though. I don't know of any case in which it has been a problem, but it seems to me that it could go either way. If a street thug has his gun tucked in his pants, it's my opinion that he'd likely be charged with concealing. By that same argument, I would think that you would be, too, in a broad interpretation of what constitutes concealment. When we OC with an OWB holster, holster + handle = gun. With an IWB holster, the holster is concealed. That's why we use them. That leaves the bulk of the gun concealed from common observation, unless you drop trow while you eat. ;-)

    Anyone got any cites on this? I'm going to do a search, but I can't until tomorrow, Saturday.
    I'm sure older threads have covered this but to the best of my knowledge there is no Virginia case law that says IWB OC is equal to concealment.

    Heres my theory on why none exists. There are 2 factors involved, the primary being that a pistol grip is sufficiently obvious to be considered OC. Second, consider that the handgun belt holster is a relatively modern invention and for most of the history of the commonwealth the primary way one could OC about the person would be to tuck a pistol into a sash or trousers.

    I think one could also make the argument, that so long as a weapon is partially visible, that the right of OC cannot be made dependent on utilizing an expensive carry rig. Perhaps our forefathers saw things this way too.

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    I OC IWB in restaurants. Usually khakis and a tucked in dress shirt or polo shirt.

    If you look at my belt you will plainly see the hammer, grip and rear portion of the slide.

    My wife is always commenting on how big it looks! (no comments from the peanut gallery!)

    The way I figure it if you are too dense to recognize it is a gun, or are just oblivious (95% of the world) that is your problem. Sometimes I think it is "concealed" in plain sight as little as a response I have picked up on!

    Any LE would instantly know it was a gun and thus no issue...and if he didn't recognize it as a gun, again....there is no issue! Not my responsibility to make sure he sees it, just that it is obvious that it is a gun on plain observation.



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    soloban wrote:
    No you don't. The only thing you will find in VA code concerning OC in restaurants that serve alcohol is the fact that CCW in restaurants that serve alcohol is prohibited unless you are owner or an employee with permission.

    The law makes no mention of OC in an alcohol serving establishment so what isn't explicitly illegal is legal.

    Perhaps you are confusing the bill that didn't make it past the Governor's desk this year that would have allowed you to CCW in restaurants only if you notified the staff.
    If I am reading the law as someone posted it....permision to carry ccw by an employee is not need from the employee. Am I missing something? If an emplyee is not forbiden....as I read this it would be legal to ccw on the job. I am sure someone can clarify, but I see nothing requiring permision from the employer.




    18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A.... For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature...

    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under <B>Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit. </B>





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    caltain wrote:
    I'm sure that the previous post meant to tuck your shirt BEHIND your gun when you transition. Make SURE that you uncover before you touch that door, too. Some of get lax or forget and uncover as we're sitting down. Some day one of us will get popped for that.

    I'm sort of concerned about IWB being a gray area for open carry, though. I don't know of any case in which it has been a problem, but it seems to me that it could go either way. If a street thug has his gun tucked in his pants, it's my opinion that he'd likely be charged with concealing. By that same argument, I would think that you would be, too, in a broad interpretation of what constitutes concealment. When we OC with an OWB holster, holster + handle = gun. With an IWB holster, the holster is concealed. That's why we use them. That leaves the bulk of the gun concealed from common observation, unless you drop trow while you eat. ;-)

    Anyone got any cites on this? I'm going to do a search, but I can't until tomorrow, Saturday.
    OC in an IWB is dangerous ground. A LEO could make an argument that your IWB meets this - "

    "For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature"

    I have a custom made IWB holster thatsits lower in the pants than just about any other holster I have ever used. The photo here is the holster I use:





    If I were to do the "Virginia tuck", it would be very easy to have a little part of the shirt virtually obscure my gun from anyone.

    What we teach in our classes is that you should have an inexpensive OC holster at your disposal to make sure that you are in compliance. Its worth it to make sure that you are not in the gray.
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    I appreciate the reminder about accidental concealment! I hadn't thought about that in years since it would be essentially impossible with the way I carry and manner of dress. Good job!

    The reason I broached the subject in the first place is that it is a gray area that I haven't seen resolved by tort. It's too much like the old obscenity quote that says "I don't know what it is, but I'll know it when I see it." The wording of the Code of VA is just too vague on this point. When we OC in an external holster, the holster isn't considered concealment because it serves no other purpose but to contain a gun. The presence of the holster implies the presence of the gun to any reasonable observer.

    When the holster itself is concealed, it's not there to say the rest of the object is a gun. I'm just not convinced that the case could not be made for IWB carry as being concealed. I don't recall hearing of any cases on point, nor have I been able to find much on the subject in my quick research, so far. I thought it best to suggest moving to black or white from the gray of this area, at least until we can find some case law to support an intermediary position between OWB = OC and IWB = CC.

    As for brandishing without touching the weapon,you can and the scenario is pretty obvious. It's about using the weapon to instill fear in a reasonable person. You can certainly do that without grasping it in your hand and waving it around. The actual cite is 18.2-282 in which brandishing is but one way to violate the code.

    I'm still looking for case law regarding concealment and I'll look for some more regarding brandishing while I'm at it. These are two gray areas that need to be clarified as much as possible for those of us that toe the line daily.

    Dan aka caltain

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    Longwatch:

    Now that's what I wanted to see! People really thinking about the issue. I especially liked your second point about historical precedent. The sash! I'd have never come up with that, even though I knew it to be a common method of carry, historically. As an argument, it won't wash, though. The current code I cited above was first enacted in 1950. Holster carry dates to pre-Civil War, but I don't know how much further past that. I'll check into that also. I'm pretty sure that holster carry was more common than sash style carry by 1950. I don't have a cite for that, though...;-)

    Dan

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    hsmith wrote:
    It is sad the citizens mindset is they must have permission from the government to exercise ther right!
    I don't see any government permission being asked about here. I just see someone asking if he needs management permission to carry on private property if they serve alcohol.



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    Something to remember is that a belt slide holster in generally classified as an open type. An IWB is considered a concealment holster.

    Check any holster company's website and see how they describe it.
    James Reynolds

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    I'm often asked about this subject in our classes and I use this example.

    I say to you, "hey I want that money that you owe me".

    Then, I glance down at my gun on my side long enough to assume that your eyes are now drawn to it as well.

    I look up to see that you are staring at my gun.

    I ask for my money again.

    Now, the impression that you get is that if I dont get my money, you are going to meet the business end of my gun - that's brandishing.

    A classic example used in movies is someone opening their jacket and pulling one side away from their body, exposing their firearm in order to get someone to do something........that's brandishing as well.
    James Reynolds

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    Okay, folks. The term brandishing has no LEGAL definition in VA. It is commonly used in conjunction with weapons and assault laws, and is commonly understood to refer to any other overt act that has not already been specifically stated.

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